Homosexuality, Christians, and the Bible
A Review and Discussion of 'Can You Be Gay and Christian?'


A Review and Discussion of Michael Brown's Can You Be Gay and Christian? from Amazon.com

See also The 'Gay Christian' Debate: A Review of Dr. Brown's Outlasting the Gay Revolution by Kathy Baldock (with response from Dr. Brown)

THE 'PRO-GAY' ARGUMENTS ARE FAR SUPERIOR TO MICHAEL BROWN'S
by Devin from Amazon.com

Can You Be Gay and Christian? by Michael L. BrownThis review is from: Can You Be Gay and Christian? Responding with Love and Truth to Questions About Homosexuality by Dr. Michael Brown

Their arguments are far superior to Brown's....

Can you be gay and Christian? Yes of course. But what Brown is really asking is "can you be gay and fundamentalist?" The answer? Probably not. Brown's questioning style and inclusion of many gay authors convinced me that he is entirely wrong in his belief that you cannot be gay and Christian. I really appreciated all of the pro-gay writers mentioned, people whom I have never heard of before. Their arguments are far superior to Brown's. If anything, this book actually convinced me that you can be gay and Christian.

Brown's chapter on slavery was particularly weak. While Brown contends that he is not minimizing biblical slavery, he is in fact doing just that. Then Brown sinks deeper into the biblical quicksand by bringing up the bible's abominable treatment of women. I don't see how Brown can write off certain biblical admonitions which demand that women must be 'silent and submissive' and even have their hair worn in a certain way. Actually women were only property, chattel with no rights whatsoever. By citing a few prominent women in the bible Brown just skates over how women were actually treated. Frankly, Brown's arguments are so poorly thought out it is amazing that he seems to think that he has made a case for his wobbly POV.

Brown offers a mish mash of extraneous bible verses to back up his anti-gay opinions but I found the questions he included of Luke Johnson much more compelling and reasonable. No, homosexuality is NOT a "manifestation of a fallen nature, whatever its causes and origins." Brown needs to consider more seriously that gay is innate and immutable. It does NOT change. And a few anecdotes of people who have been so terrorized by hell that they will deny their own personal truth and force themselves to live a lie for the remainder of their lives does not convince anyone but Brown.

And no, God does not make his "disapproval of homosexual practice even clearer" in the New Testament. It's Paul who does that. Paul like Brown finds 'gay sex' to be 'icky' and he has built his beliefs around his personal opinions. Brown has accused gays of trying to "rewrite the bible" as gays "projecting one's own thoughts and desires onto the text" when in fact that is exactly what Brown is doing, projecting his own anti-gay reactions and anti-gay desires into the scriptural text.

No matter what his intentions Brown and his ilk are turning gays around away from Christ. And then they wonder why they are scorned by gays when they profess to 'love' them. I wonder if someday Brown and his friends will be lined up in Heaven and made to observe unsaved gays who went to their destruction because the Christians were so exclusive and obnoxious? Will the the saints shed tears for what their ill chosen words produced? If Brown believes that his words and behavior will win over gays and specifically gay Christians, he is tragically wrong. He and his kind are driving gays away from Christ with their biblical opinions.

The truth is that gayness is innate and immutable. No amount of objections by Brown will change that fact. He might do well to read Redeeming the Dream by David Boise and Ted Olson to get a clearer picture of what it means to be gay.

Devin (Gay and Christian)


Long Detailed Discussion of this Review from Amazon.com (this took place over many months)

Scott McKay

The only problem with your view on this is that God made it abundantly clear that homosexuality is against His law. I suppose you're OK if you're abstinent, but if you engage in homosexual sex (or heterosexual sex if you're unmarried) you're gonna have a problem.

Timothy A. Owen

Devin, what Paul wrote in the NT is the Word of God. Everyone is born with a sin nature. If yours is to do nasty things with other men then you must abstain from it to live for God. Just like a grown man who wants to sleep with teenage cheerleaders must abstain from that. God saves and sanctifies. I know people who were once in the "gay lifestyle" who have been set free by the power of Christ. If someone tells you that you can go to Heaven while doing unnatural, immoral acts does not "love" you. Bible-believing Christians are the best friends homosexuals have.

Devin

Tim, there is no such thing as a 'gay lifestyle' only gay people living their lives just like everyone else.

GMB

Thank you for that very thoughtful, cogent response to this work that attempts to sanctify intolerance in the name of God. I'm sure there were 'benevolent' slave owners who in our own history responded with love to their slaves, Bible at the ready for justification, just as there are sanctimonious (evangelical) Christians and (fundamentalist) Muslims who use Scripture to justify how they treat women.

I realize that there are tolerant, loving evangelical Christians who accept people without trying to reject or demonize the fact that they happen to be gay. I am married to such a person. Sadly, they seem few and far between at the moment. But most people with these fundamentalist orientations now reject the concept of being intolerant of others of different races, which had previously been justified with citations of scripture.

There has been such great progress for gays and women that it leaves me hopeful that thinking such as Brown's will be increasingly on the margins. Let's be evangelical about that.

Aaron

Thank you Timothy Owen for telling it like it is and correctly pointing out that homosexuality IS a lifestyle and behavior and a manifestation of the fallen nature, not something innate or immutable as Devin and other people who try to justify immorality deceptively state and insinuate. And how do they deceptively do this? They use underhanded emotional attacks and illegitimate comparisons to slavery just like Devin and GMB did. That's like comparing people who rightly condemn incest to people who tried to justify slavery. That doesn't even come close to qualifying as reality. The Bible does not rationalize and condone homosexuality and that's the bottom line. Deal with it already!

Devin

Aaron, as a gay Christian I believe that the Bible as a whole is inspired by God, but that does not mean that culture and opinion do not figure into it. It was fundamentalist J. Vernon McGee who stated that Paul's comments about women and how they should wear their hair was only his opinion, not something inspired by the Holy Spirit. Paul did not like homosexuality. That was his opinion. One ancient man's opinion should not be used to clobber gays in this day and age. Also, you know nothing about what it means to be gay so your flippant reply that gay is not innate and immutable is pointless and actually kind of insulting. Deal with that.

Aaron

There is nothing for me to deal with and it's not my fault if the truth insults you so I don't apologize for that. BTW, "gay" Christian is an oxymoron. That's like saying you are an adulterous Christian or an incestuous Christian. If you think that you can continue in sin with no remorse or repentance from it than you have a false sense of security according to 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:9-10. And that was not just Paul's opinion and it's an extremely arbitrary and biased interpretation on your part. That's like saying that "you shall not commit adultery" was only Moses' opinion. Plus, the Old and New Testaments both condemn homosexuality and God has made it completely obvious from the nature and anatomy of the human body that homosexuality is an unnatural perversion.

Aaron

I am so wrong? Show me from the Bible anywhere that says that homosexuality is anything but immoral and detestable. I'll save you the trouble. There are none. Whenever homosexuality is mentioned or the concept of it, it is condemned. And you can say that you are a homosexual Christian all you want to but that doesn't mean that you are a real Christian. Like I said before, that makes about as much sense as saying that someone is an adulterous Christian or an incestuous Christian or even a thieving Christian. You are simply loving your sin rather than loving Jesus and are just trying to rationalize it in your own mind. And also, I don't hate homosexuals and your insinuation that I do is nothing but an underhanded emotional attack to try to get me to shut up about the truth regarding the sinfulness of homosexuality. It's very dishonest of you to judge me that way simply because I call sin "sin" and you can't give me any support for your stance and accusations from the Bible.

Devin

Actually Aaron you know nothing about me and I know nothing about you but that you fear gays. I do not know why right-wing conservative fundamentalists fear gays so much. Every day of your life you are mixing and mingling with gay folk whether you know it or not. I wonder if your fear and disgust come from a basic insecurity about the world around you. I do not need a bible verse to justify homosexuality, it is merely a fact of life. I am really sorry that you cannot accept your gay brothers in Christ. As a sinner saved by grace I can only hope that you will some day develop a little grace and mercy of your own. "I will never leave you nor forsake you" Hebrews 13:5 Nothing can separate me from Jesus.

Aaron

Devin, you have given me enough knowledge about you by the fact that you name the name of Christ yet you are trying to justify and rationalize immoral behavior that He died to set you and others free from which is hypocritical. I don't fear homosexuals despite your persistent accusations. And yes, as a professing Christian you would have to use the Bible to legitimately justify homosexuality but since you can't do that you arbitrarily dismiss what the Bible has to say regarding the issue because it doesn't line up with your philosophy and desires. Well, I have to go with what God says over what you say.

Devin

No, Aaron, you don't know me. I am not 'trying to justify and rationalize' anything. Also, I am not 'persistently accusing' you. I am merely wondering about your hate and fear. I can tell from your words that you (and Dr. Brown) are legalistic fundamentalists. Despite this I assume you are a genuine Christian. But you obviously have a hardened heart towards gay folk. That's so sad. I see you are lacking in grace and mercy. Perhaps you should pray about your brittle, fragile attitude?

Aaron

"I am not 'trying to justify and rationalize' anything."

Oh but you are. When you say that you can be a Christian and homosexual and insinuate that homosexuality is not a sin (which the Bible clearly states and it's also obvious from nature itself) then yes, you are trying to justify and rationalize sin. You also continue to accuse me of fear and hate with no justification for it and then turn around and deny that you are accusing me. And I do not have a hardened heart toward homosexuals. I care about them and hope that many of them will have the blinders lifted from there eyes so they can see their behavior for what it is so that they can repent and come to faith in Jesus. You believe in a Jesus that accepts your sin which that is not the Jesus of the Bible and I hope for your sake you will stop condoning what offends Him and truly examine yourself to see if you really are a Christian (2 Corinthians 13:5). You need to pray about whether you love Jesus or do you love your sin because Jesus said that you can't have it both ways. (John 14:15 and 21).

Devin

See, that's your problem. Being gay is NOT a behavior. It is innate and immutable whether you and Dr. Brown admit it or not. All of us are sinners, Aaron, even you and Dr. Brown. No, I am not offending Jesus. But as a legalistic fundamentalist you may be blinding yourself to your hard heart and lack of grace. I think you need to pray about your own offenses. Now, I've got to get back to work.

Aaron

"Being gay is NOT a behavior. It is innate and immutable..."

I'm sorry but the Scriptures inspired by the God that you say you believe in say otherwise. Like I said before, I have to accept what God says over what you say and He has made it emphatically clear that homosexuality IS a behavior and that it is a perversion of His plan for marriage and sex.

I never said nor implied that I was without sin so I don't know why you even brought that up. It adds nothing to the discussion. And yes, you are offending the Lord by condoning what He has called immoral. You calling me a legalistic fundamentalist is just another frivolous personal attack because you don't want to deal with and accept that homosexuality is sin. You're not offended at me, you are offended at the Lord Jesus Christ.

Devin

Aaron, wherever did God say that 'homosexuality is a behavior'? You are just making assumptions and weak ones at that. Again, I am not offending Jesus or His Holy Spirit would tell me so. I am not 'attacking' you. I am merely pointing out that as a legalistic fundamentalist your opinions about Jesus are not to be trusted. Because you are not gay you and Dr. Brown have no business making pronouncements on the subject. Neither of you know what you are talking about.

Hopi R.

So Devin, are you saying that all homosexuals are born that way and none of them choose to be that way?

Aaron

In Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1:26-27 it clearly describes what homosexuality is and the verses are plainly referring to behavior. No where in the Bible does it say or even imply that being a homosexual is innate or immutable. In fact, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 refers to homosexuals and then the Scripture says in verse 11 "such were some of you." This verse plainly teaches that people CAN repent and turn from homosexuality just like any other sin so it is your argument that has no validity. You can write it off as "legalistic fundamentalism" all you want to. It's just a pretentious attempt to paint an unjustified caricature of your opponent because you can't think of anything legitimate to say in refutation.

Devin

Yes, Hopi.

Devin

Aaron, 1 Cor. 6:9-11 is a ridiculous verse, Paul's opinion and nothing else. It is apples and oranges. Perhaps Paul was referring to heterosexuals who were acting out sexually. As J. Vernon McGee (fundamentalist) said, the bible's comment about how women are to wear their hair was only Paul's opinion. Why shouldn't Paul's comments about homosexuality be any different?

Aaron

I've already addressed the whole "it's only Paul's opinion" argument and it doesn't hold water at all. Why only cherry pick homosexuality? With your skewed logic we should conclude that it's only Paul's opinion when he acknowledges that adultery is a sin or that murdering is a sin or that stealing is a sin. We don't need to keep going in circles over this and you only say it's ridiculous because it's devastating to your argument. The passage makes it very plain that homosexuality can be repented of just like any other sin.

Devin

Aaron, being gay is NOT a sin. The word 'homosexuality' was not even invented until the nineteenth century so you have no idea what Paul may or may not have been saying. As far as I can tell Paul was referring to heterosexuals who were behaving badly. Like I have said before, you know NOTHING about being gay so your opinion is meaningless. Your interpretation of a few bible verses is grounded in your legalistic fundamentalism so it is not trustworthy.

Aaron

The word "homosexuality" may not have been derived until the nineteenth century (I'm not sure if this is true or not) but that's irrelevant. The concept of homosexuality has always been known and certainly the writers of Scripture were not ignorant of it, especially the apostle Paul. Paul was not referring to "heterosexuals behaving badly" in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. You are yet again arbitrarily invoking your own presupposition onto a passage to try to force it to say something that it clearly does not say or imply. And I am not giving you MY opinion, I'm merely pointing to what the word of God says and you are twisting and distorting it to condone what God has plainly called sin. Also, enough with the bogus and childish reference to "legalistic fundamentalism." As I said before, it's an illegitimate retort that shows that you just can't think of any valid point to add to the argument.

Book Fiend

Devin, using your biblical standard of calling Paul's writing on homosexuality "his opinion" then by extension one can say all of Paul's writings are his opinion and therefore invalid. I am not a Biblical literalist , I do not believe that the Bible is a History book, I believe in evolution (I am Theistic Evolutionist) but I also believe that the Bible is the inspired unerring word of God. The Lord is pretty clear on what behaviors are sinful and we are to repent from such behavior. Devin by your standard I can just throw out all of Romans and Galatians and deny Justification by Faith alone. I can then create my own personal theology were being saved is just a matter of being a "Good" person and that sin does not matter as long it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Devin

I cannot take you seriously Aaron because everything you say about my POV is true about your own. Your interpretation of the bible is as subjective as mine. You are doing the exact same thing which you accuse me of doing. You do not know if Paul's reference to homosexuality (an invented word) involved heterosexuals behaving badly or not. You subjectively wish to believe that. You CHOOSE to interpret it that way. It is not 'bogus' or 'childish' to remind you that as a legalistic fundamentalist your subjective interpretation of the bible is suspect. Yes, Aaron, you ARE giving me your biblical opinion whether you realize it or not. How you read the bible produces your opinion. (Only God is capable of objectivity, man is not.) You are 'arbitrarily invoking your own presupposition' to 'force it to say' what you want it to say.

Devin

Book Fiend, I have to disagree.

Book Fiend

Devin, OK so why and how do you disagree? I am just taking your comments in regards to Paul's writings on sexual behavior to the logical conclusion. So how do you make the decision what is Paul's opinion and what is inspired? There is not any ambiguity in Paul's letters about sexual relations between two people of the same gender, it's outside of God's plan. Show me the support for your Hypothesis over the last 2000 years of Bible scholarship. I know among Liberal Theologians and Pastors it is in vogue to interpret scripture in culture context. Liberal theologians will say that Paul and the his contemporaries had no conception of Homosexual "identity" in their time, so the passages have no application to modern readers. But that begs the question if Paul's writings are inspired by God, God is perfect and the scriptures are eternal then why include opinion and confusion?

Devin

Book Fiend, God's Word may be, probably is, inspired but man's interpretation is always gonna be subjective and faulty. Right up until a few years ago the Southern Baptists insisted that it was God's Word to practice segregation and they could list chapter and verse. Before that slavery was s'posed to be approved of in the Bible as God's Word.

Aaron

Devin, when you deny what the Bible clearly says and teaches under the guise of "oh Aaron, that's only your interpretation" then I (and anyone who knows what the Bible says regarding this) can no longer take you seriously. The passages that I have referenced are very plain and very straightforward and no matter how much you rant and shout irrational allegations of "legalistic fundamentalism" and the like it won't change this fact. You're trying to make passages that are cut and dry seem vague and ambiguous and it's just a deceptive and manipulative tactic on your part to attempt to rationalize sin. Pure and simple.

Devin

No Aaron, it is NOT very plain and very straightforward. I am not ranting or shouting. Are you? You would make a good Pharisee.

Aaron

Yes Devin, "Man shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman" and "the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another" ARE very plain and very straightforward and you sound very foolish and desperate for denying something so obvious.

Devin

Maybe you don't realize it but being gay is more than a sex act. You really don't know what you are talking about and you have displayed your ignorance time and time again.

Aaron

It says in Romans 1:27 (which I just quoted) that "the men...burned in their DESIRE toward one another..." That refers to what is going on in the heart so what I have been talking about is not just about the physical aspect of it. Therefore your accusation of ignorance is what is truly ignorant.

Devin

Before I write to you, Aaron, I pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. But I see that your heart is hardened against gays of all stripes. No doubt you have equally ignorant things to say about transgender folks. You really are beyond help.

Aaron

Whatever Devin. You're just trying to paint an unfair caricature of me simply because I believe the Word of God on this issue and you have rejected it in order to rationalize this sin in your own mind. You're also calling me ignorant for no other reason then the fact that you can't say anything legitimate to refute what I have said. "You're just ignorant Aaron. Ignorant, ignorant, ignorant!" Talk about desperation. But in reality, you're not trying to illegitimately refute what I'm saying, you are trying to oppose what God has said and ordained regarding marriage and sex and then hide behind the pretense of "well Aaron, I'll just pray for you because you're just hardened toward homosexuals." I'm not hardened toward homosexuals, I'm hardened toward the false and preposterous insinuations that homosexuality is not sin just like I would be if you were trying to justify adultery or incest or stealing or cheating or lying, etc.

Devin

Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, your words are what paint you as a hostile, unloving, legalistic Christian. Apparently pointing out your ignorance of all things gay has really gotten under your skin. And for that matter, what has God said about marriage? Ancient biblical folk practiced polygamy. The women were just so much property. Adam and Eve destroyed God's 'plan for marriage', didn't they. I think it is safe to imagine that they had a very unhappy marriage with Adam constantly blaming Eve for their post-Eden plight. Perhaps that is when he started to think of her as chattel. Because he'd been told to go forth and multiply the earth he obviously impregnated his daughters since there was no rule against incest until Moses' time. Or did you imagine that Adam and Eve lived an American middle-class Christian marriage? How else do you imagine that the world was populated? And then people of your ilk clamor about 'God's timeless design for marriage'? I don't think so.

Aaron

God may have allowed incest for a time in order to get the earth populated and then once the earth was adequately populated then He gave the command for family to no longer have sexual relations with one another. And as far as polygamy is concerned, two wrongs don't make a right and God's plan from the very beginning was for a man to be with a woman and the nature and anatomy of the human body makes this very plain and straightforward. No amount of false analogies and bogus allegations of ignorance, hostility and legalism, etc, etc coming from you can change that. It's obvious that you are so desperate to justify this sin and it's amazing the depths that you will stoop to in order to do so.

Devin

Desperate to justify sin? Stooping to amazing depths? I don't know what you are talking about. I was just mentioning that Adam and Eve had the first dysfunctional family and that the supposed 'timeless design of marriage' never existed. You are obviously hostile to gay people and you show your ignorance of all things gay whenever you speak. That's on you.

Aaron

I was referring to not only your attempt to justify sin by pointing out other sins committed in the Bible but also your phony allegations of ignorance, hostility and legalism in order to ignore the plain reality that God designed marriage and sex to be between a man and a woman which is made very evident by how our bodies are made up. These desperate attempts that you make are the depths that I'm talking about and that is on you.

Devin

Being born gay is not a sin. Even if it were, it is something which the Lord understands. It does not stop gay people from being genuine Christians. I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There is no way you can deny that. The Lord accepts me the way I am and if you cannot understand that then you are in need of serious help.

Aaron

No Devin, you are in serious need of help because you have rejected the Scriptures as your ultimate authority and therefore have rejected God's authority over your life. You've also bought into the popular yet erroneous notion that people are born homosexual; as if it is something that they can't repent of. God has made it clear that homosexuality IS sin and can be repented of. There is also zero scientific evidence that proves that people are born that way and it's a pipe dream to believe that that will ever be proven. It makes about as much sense to believe that science will prove that incestuous people are born that way. And the Scriptures are quite clear that you can't persist in any sin willfully without any repentance and have any true assurance that you are a real Christian(1 John 2:3-4) and that includes the sin of homosexuality.

Devin

You are so wrong, it is pitiful. But I guess you have something wrong with you that you must view the world thru a hard heart and a rigid legalistic belief system. Nothing I say will change your mind or even make you reconsider your POV. Your POV is just as subjective as is mine but at least I acknowledge it. You are one sad, sad person and I am glad I do not know you or have to deal with your prejudice. If Jesus Christ appeared to you in person and told you you were wrong, you'd not believe him. But then I expect you and Dr. Brown are very much alike. A sad excuse for a Christian.

Book Fiend

Devin you have yet to respond to the passages in Paul in any real way except for attacking those that adhere to scripture with the label of Homophobe. There is nothing "legalistic" about stating a clear unambiguous Bible passages The Scripture is clear, sexual relations between those of the same gender is a sin. You are adhering to a very Liberal reading of scripture that has never been understood in the way you are trying to put forth. Please quote the passages, chapter and verse, that shows differently.

Romans 1
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Liberal theologians claim Paul's condemnation was relative to his own culture, in which homosexuality was not understood as an orientation and in which being penetrated was seen as shameful. These interpretations are in a minority and there is isn't any scriptural support for this unorthodox reading of Romans 1.

Do some Christians over emphasize sexual sins over others in the Bible? Yes. Should any Christian use these passages to deny homosexuals housing, jobs or any other secular Right? Not at all. But to twist scripture and justify Church sanctified marriages and blessing on behavior that is clearly stated as sinful is an offence against God.

Aaron

Ok Devin. So you must be the authority on right and wrong. You say you believe in Jesus Christ yet you denounce what His word affirms and then hide behind your insistent and ridiculous accusations of legalism, hard heartedness and prejudice. Actually, I'm not a very sad person at all thank you very much and if Jesus Christ were to appear and tell me I was wrong then He would be contradicting His Scriptures so that would never happen therefore it's a moot point coming from you. Again, your pretentious arguments are nothing but a smoke screen to continue to desperately ignore the obvious fact that homosexuality is sin.

Devin

Aaron and Book Fiend, if you had read what I have already written here you would know my answers to your repetitive questions. No, the scripture is NOT clear. You are interpreting it incorrectly - a book which was NOT written in English which has undergone subtle changes, though you will never acknowledge this. How do I know this? Because when one is born gay - yes, BORN gay, one knows that there is a serious misunderstanding of the bible. So why would someone 'repent' of a fact of life? Do I also 'repent' for having been born with blue eyes?

Aaron, I did not say you were 'sad' as in 'boo-hoo', I was saying that you are sad as in pitiful. And I never said that I was an 'authority on right and wrong'.

Book Fiend, I never used the word 'homophobe'. That must be your guilty conscience speaking.

I've already said several times that everyone who reads the bible does so with a subjective POV. You see what you WANT to see and since you are legalistic fundamentalists, you have a rock hard, black and white interpretation of the bible. I already said that my POV is subjective too. You know nothing of the experience of being born gay, admit it. But you try to make yourself feel good about your prejudice by claiming gay is a behavior and a sin. It is merely your ignorance showing thru.

Aaron

Devin, you didn't say the words "I am an authority on right and wrong" but when you keep saying that I'm wrong about homosexuality with no evidence or basis for it then you have indeed acted as if you are the one who determines what is right and wrong on this issue and not the Scriptures.

You've answered the questions but we've proven time and time again that your answers are not legitimate based on the Scriptures which ARE very clear and unambiguous on this issue despite your desperate and fallacious claims to the contrary. So what if the Bible wasn't originally written in English! The original language is just as plain and straightforward. And you have no proof or basis for saying that people are born homosexual. As I've said before that is the same as saying that people are born incestuous which is absurd and ridiculous.

You saying that the Bible is subjective on the issue of homosexuality is comparable to saying that the Bible is subjective on murder or adultery or pedophilia or stealing or bestiality or any other sin. Sorry but we're not going to let you get away with twisting and manipulating what the Scriptures say regarding the sin of homosexuality and then hide behind dishonest and frivolous accusations of ignorance, prejudice and legalism. The Bible is cut and dry on this issue whether you acknowledge it or not.

Devin

I asked the Holy Spirit to guide me as to what to write here to try to dent your hardened hearts. I was just reading an article on AlterNet and I thought of you. It was mostly concerned with the politics of conservatives but it really holds true for religious conservatives. You are ruled by a 'negativity bias' so that you are more 'attuned to negative stimuli'. Meaning you are easily threatened. The article said that conservatives have a 'need for certainty' and 'an intolerance of ambiguity'. I guess that explains to a degree your hardened hearts and your need to believe that the bible is set in concrete.As someone reading an English bible you cannot, as I can't, know exactly what was meant by the bible's clobber verses.But I realize you cannot tolerate that fact. You are desperate to believe in a black and white version of the bible. I would not mind that belief except that my experience tells me otherwise. Gay is NOT a 'behavior'. Gay is NOT a 'lifestyle'. Gay is NOT an 'agenda'.Your choice to be a Christian is a behavior, a lifestyle and an agenda.

Aaron

"You are ruled by a 'negativity bias' so that you are more 'attuned to negative stimuli'. Meaning you are easily threatened."

This is the epitome of a straw-man argument and totally without merit. You once again try to create a false description of our arguments in order to make it easy to knock down. We are not governed by negativity and it's definitely not a case of being easily threatened(I could just as easily say the same about you); we're governed by what the Scriptures and nature reveal regarding the sin of homosexual BEHAVIOR.

"The article said that conservatives have a 'need for certainty' and 'an intolerance of ambiguity.'"

As if certainty is a bad thing? That statement sure doesn't do anything for your argument.

"As someone reading an English bible you cannot, as I can't, know exactly what was meant by the bible's clobber verses."

Ok. First of all, I already addressed the issue of the "Bible in English" objection. It's really no objection at all because as I mentioned before, the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts are just as plain and straightforward about this and yes, I have studied them. Secondly, calling them "clobber verses" is just another illegitimate dismissal of something that you just don't want to deal with. That's just as absurd as a thief saying that the verses that condemn stealing are nothing more than "clobber verses." It makes no sense.

"I would not mind that belief except that my experience tells me otherwise. Gay is NOT a 'behavior'. Gay is NOT a 'lifestyle'. Gay is NOT an 'agenda'."

Here you go again acting as if you are the authority and not what God has said to us about the sin of homosexuality. I can't go by what you think your experience is. I have to believe God and not you and yes, He has made it clear that homosexuality IS a behavior and lifestyle and CAN be repented of.

RychusOne

Sure, the church should not pick on any one sin. I apologize for the church. Gay christian should'nt be emphasized more than, Fornicating christian, Adulterer christian, Lying christian, Murdering christian, Stealing christian, Raping christian, Satan worshipping christian, etc etc.. We are so sorry for singleing your sin out and making you feel rejected.

PLEASE know that God loves ALL sinners and calls us to come to the Savior and receive a NEW inner life. A Born Again spirit. A Changed heart!! The responsiblity now rests on the TRUE believer to follow after the desires of the spirit NOT of the flesh. NO one gets a free ride here. So you think I was born a person who likes to have lots of sex with different women?? If you think that you were born wanting to have sex with the same gender ok, maybe we are born with sexual desires (i don't believe that lie for one second but I'll just go along with your deception here.) Well as a born again man, now I have a responsiblity to NOT follow those wrong desires of my flesh and follow the Right desires of my born again spirit...

Devin

Know for sure? Boy, are you out out to lunch for sure!

Ben

Aaron, I commend you for your patience and kindness toward Devin.

Devin, I wish you could see how fair-minded and logical Aaron has been. Not to mention, extremely tolerant. You talk a lot about the holy spirit leading you. But I see far more of Christ in the way that Aaron has addressed you, than in the way you have addressed him. You have repeatedly labeled him and engaged in name calling. Do you really think that is the leading of the holy spirit in you?

I would like to know why it is that you feel the need to identify as a Christian in the first place? You have stated that you believe the Bible is inspired, but it is quite obvious to everyone here (except perhaps yourself) that you do not truly believe that. Anyone who believed that the Whole Bible is inspired by God cannot claim that part of the Bible is only human opinion (even J V McGee is wrong for doing so - he has contradicted himself, and if he were here, it would be appropriate to challenge his claim). This is a matter of simple logic; it's called the law of non-contradiction: X cannot be Y and not Y at the same time and in the same sense. A book cannot be inspired and not inspired at the same time and in the same sense. If the Bible is divinely inspired, then even Paul's opinions carry the weight of divine authority. If Paul's "opinions" as recorded in scripture do not carry the weight of divine authority, then parts or all of the Bible are not divinely inspired. You cannot have it both ways.

This brings me back to my original question. why is it that you feel the need to identify as a Christian in the first place? If you reject the scriptures - and you clearly do - then what is the basis of your faith? how do you know who Jesus is? How do you know who the holy spirit is? How do you know what sin is? How do you know what salvation is? How do you know Who God is? What sets Christianity apart from other religions is that Christians believe that the correct answers to these questions are found in the inspired collection of writings that is the Bible. But if you do not believe that, if you have another source from which you are drawing your answers to these questions, then why bother with Christianity? Why does it appeal to you? would it not be easier to find some other religion that actually does suit what you really truly believe?

If you can imagine how silly it would be for a professing Muslim to argue that Muhammad was not qualified to teach the Islamic religion, or that the teachings of the Koran get Islam all wrong, and should not be trusted as a legitimate record of Islamic beliefs. If you can imagine how silly that would be, that is how you come across when you claim to be a Christian and yet argue against the plain teaching of the Christian scriptures. And yes they are plain, there is no ambiguity on this subject. That is why many intelligent homosexuals, rather than try and assimilate Christianity to their personal beliefs, reject it outright, because they can see that Christianity and homosexuality are incompatible ways of life.

Devin

Hi Ben. So you think I am silly? Isn't that name-calling? Sorry you are unable to understand that one can be a Christian and also believe that much of the bible is inspired but that some of it has been misinterpreted. Maybe you should try reading Christian Piatt's book 'Post Christian : what's left? can we fix it? do we care?" . You seem to be living in a tiny box and have a very limited view of God. .Piatt's wife, attending a gay pride festival wore this sign "As a Christian I am sorry for the narrow-minded, judgmental, deceptive, manipulative actions of those who denied rights and equality to so many in the name of God'. Nuff said.

Aaron

Ben, your point is well taken despite the weak and phony argument that Devin has presented in a vain attempt to refute you.

"...one can be a Christian and also believe that much of the bible is inspired but that some of it has been misinterpreted."

Says who? You? Sorry Devin but you don't have the authority to make such a determination. 2 Timothy 3:16 says that it is ALL inspired by God. You don't want to accept the clear and straightforward condemnations of homosexuality because you love that sin and refuse to repent of it and so you try to rationalize and justify it in your own mind by distorting the Scriptures to try to make them seem ambiguous and vague. Then, when someone correctly points out that the Scriptures do condemn it then you resort to false analogies and emotional fallacies of "slavery," "prejudice" and "narrow-mindedness" to try to bolster your argument. We're not going to be manipulated by your pretentious arguments. The Bible could not be more plain on this issue. Nuff said.

Ben

Thank you Aaron.

I tried to enter into a respectful intelligent dialogue with Devin. However based on the fact that he has refused to respond to the question that I have put to him, I have to assume that he isn't really interested in intelligent dialogue. So I'm going to bow out of this discussion. If Devin decides to reconsider the question that I have asked, and offer an intelligent well-thought-out reply, I may respond to him. But I'm not going to take the bait and enter into a "shouting" match with him.

Devin

Aaron and Ben, I happen to have a life which I am busy living so I do not have the time to check in here all the time to see what your paltry arguments are.

Sorry if my replies are not satisfactory for you guys. I will simply repeat, the Bible can be inspired yet misinterpreted by mere man. Ben, Aaron is not 'fair-minded', 'logical', or 'tolerant'. Is it name-calling to point out that both of you are obviously fundamentalists? It's fundamentalists who believe that their tiny group is the only one which will enter Heaven.

Why do I identify as Christian? Is that your question? I have been and am indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Aaron, you are truly offensive. You can name-call all you want but you come across as being just as pompous as Michael Brown himself. You guys can attack me all you want but as long as gays are born gay (no, it is not a choice) the Lord will not hold it against us. In fact, it is attitudes like yours which make gays turn away from Christ. (It's like being a anti-missionary.) How will you feel when the Lord scolds you for all the people who were lost because of your disdain and dislike of gays?

Aaron

"...I happen to have a life which I am busy living..."

So do we. What's your point?

"Aaron, you are truly offensive. You can name-call all you want but you come across as being just as pompous as Michael Brown himself. You guys can attack me all you want but as long as gays are born gay (no, it is not a choice) the Lord will not hold it against us."

I did not call you any names so your point is void. Also, if the truth offends you that's not my fault. You think you're offended at me but you're really offended by the God you say that you believe in because all I was doing was merely pointing out the fact that the Scriptures, which are inspired by God, flatly and in no uncertain terms condemn homosexuality as sin. It doesn't matter how much you try to obfuscate and confuse the issue, it won't change what the Scriptures plainly say about this sin. It also doesn't matter how much you keep repeating yourself, saying that homosexuality is unchangeable and not a choice; it won't change the fact that homosexuality is not in-born or genetic and is a choice that can be repented of according to the Bible. You simply refuse to accept what the Bible says and when people like me don't let you get away with denying that it is a sin, you resort to judgmental and personal attacks like calling me pompous. It isn't pompous or arrogant to acknowledge what the Bible teaches which is all that I did. It is, however, pompous and arrogant on your part to try to manipulate the Bible to fit your lifestyle.

Homosexuals need to hear that they need to repent of homosexuality just like any other sin. If that drives them away then there is nothing I can do about it and the Lord doesn't hold me accountable for that. He will, however, hold people accountable for the hypocrisy of claiming to believe in Him and at the same time promoting and propagating sexual sin such as homosexuality.

Devin

No, Aaron, I am not offended by God. How did you come up with that silly idea? Being born gay is NOT a sin and you can deny that fact until you are blue in the face, but one of these days (and I hope it is soon) you will have to adjust your fundamentalist narrow judgement when even you will have to admit that indeed gays are BORN gay.

Aaron

I can discern that you are really offended at God and not me because I pointed out how God has clearly condemned homosexuality as sin and then you tell me that you're offended by that. Also, you're under the delusion that people are born homosexual. There is no proof of that and there never will be. God has commanded people to repent of that sin just like any other and therefore, it is a choice no matter how much you use capital letters and deny this fact. You need to adjust your humanistic, worldly view and conform it to what God has commanded and stop hiding behind phony and superficial accusations of "narrowmindedness" and "judgmentalism."

Devin

Aaron, face it. You are just another fundamentalist. I have no respect for fundamentalists of any stripe, be they Christian or Muslim. You are really just another James David Manning. My accusations, as you call them, are neither phony nor superficial. As a matter of fact it is interesting that you would choose those words cos they could be applied to you very easily. If you are too obtuse to comprehend the difference between gay sex and a gay person, then you will forever remain in your tiny box of fear-induced religiosity.

Aaron

"My accusations, as you call them, are neither phony nor superficial. As a matter of fact it is interesting that you would choose those words cos they could be applied to you very easily."

Yes, your accusations are phony and superficial. The words I chose were based on what the God-inspired Scriptures say and yours are based on your own human reasoning in an effort to ignore the condemnations of homosexuality that God has given. You need to face up to your hypocrisy of claiming to be a Christian and then turning around and saying that homosexuality is natural and is not sinful which is a blatant contradiction to what God has declared in the Bible.

"If you are too obtuse to comprehend the difference between gay sex and a gay person, then you will forever remain in your tiny box of fear-induced religiosity."

There's another baseless and shallow emotional accusation, especially the part about "fear-induced religiosity." Of course I know the difference between homosexuality and a homosexual. I believe that a person can be a Christian and struggle with homosexual desires as long as that person acknowledges that they are sinful and has a repentant attitude toward them. We all struggle with sinful desires in our lives. But if we keep making excuses for them and rationalize them away or even worse, say that those desires are not sinful and can't be changed then the Scriptures say that we are deceived if we think that we are Christians(1 John 3:6-10). Again, if you say you are a Christian then have the integrity and honesty to accept that the Bible explicitly says that homosexuality is a sin and needs to be repented of and quit trying to mold and shape the Bible to fit your desires.

Devin

Not to be too rude but, you are kinda slow Aaron, aren't you? The 'words you choose' are based on your own human reasoning in an effort to condemn gay people. Your hypocrisy is mind-blowing. Only God knows objective truth. Man is not capable of anything more than subjective reasoning. Did the Holy Spirit inspire the words of the Bible in English? I thought not. So your observations are based on human reasoning as are mine. I have to laugh at your presumption that gays 'struggle' with being gay. That is just another fundamentalist assumption. I repent of the sin in my life but have no reason to repent of the way I was born. If you can't figure that out then you need to rethink your POV.

Aaron

"The 'words you choose' are based on your own human reasoning in an effort to condemn gay people. Your hypocrisy is mind-blowing."

Your accusation of hypocrisy on my part is weak. As I said before, the words I used were based on the words of God in the Bible. You're trying desperately to make it sound like I am making this up in an effort to ignore what God plainly says about the sin of homosexuality.

"Did the Holy Spirit inspire the words of the Bible in English? I thought not. So your observations are based on human reasoning as are mine."

If you will read some of my earlier posts you'll see that I already addressed the "Bible in English" argument which is really no argument at all. The original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts condemn homosexuality and that is why English Bibles do so as well. Therefore, your assertion that I'm using human reasoning is void and baseless.

"I repent of the sin in my life but have no reason to repent of the way I was born."

People who are incestuous, alcoholics and pedophiles could use the same excuse of "oh, this is just the way I was born" but it's nothing but an attempt to rationalize and justify their behavior which is absurd and it's no different with you. Laugh all you want to but you're just in denial about your sin. Face it, the Bible condemns homosexuality as sin. Period.

Devin

Your misinterpretation of the bible is purely subjective. What a waste of time. Why don't you get yourself some gay friends and then see if you can be so cocksure of yourself. I do not respect fundamentalists. Period.

Aaron

No, you're in denial of the Bible's clear and unmistakable condemnation of homosexuality which is purely subjective and arbitrary on your part.

I have known people who were homosexual and I have been friendly to them regardless but I don't need to know homosexuals in order to know whether or not it is sin anymore than I would need to know any incestuous or adulterous people to know that those behaviors are sinful. BTW, you don't have to respect fundamentalism(as if adhering to the fundamentals of true Christianity were something evil or wicked?!). That's irrelevant when it comes to the fact that homosexuality is perversion.

Devin

I'm just sitting here Aaron, wondering why you have such an obsession with gay people. I've heard what you have to say but I do not think you have heard a word of what I have said. I have explained to you that gay people are not gay sex. But your brain is set in concrete and you cannot understand that. What is it about your subjectivity that you do not see? Only God is truly objective. You see what you want to see, as does everyone. Gay is NOT a behavior, it is an orientation. We are talking about real people here and despite what you or the pompous Michael Brown choose to think, gay people can be Christians.

Aaron

Also, I don't have an obsession with homosexuals. You're just trying to make me sound like I'm obsessed as a manipulative tactic to divert attention away from the real issue, namely that God has declared in the Scriptures that homosexuality is immoral and wicked.

If I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed about people who try to twist and distort the Bible in order to rationalize sin, whatever that sin may be. I would oppose you just as much if you were trying to assert that the Bible doesn't condemn incest or getting drunk or stealing or the desire to do those kinds of things, etc, etc.

Devin

Sad to say Aaron but you DO have an unnatural obsession with all things gay. I am in no way being manipulative. I totally understand that you have a problem with gay sex, but do you have a problem with gay people? For that matter, do you have a problem with transgendered people?

Aaron

Nope, I'm not obsessed. Again, you are clearly trying to be manipulative. I already explained myself in the last comment and answered your question. There is no need to continue to beg the question. If you do so, you're just being intellectually dishonest.

And since Amazon illegitimately deleted my other post from yesterday I will post it again below.

You said "I've heard what you have to say but I do not think you have heard a word of what I have said. I have explained to you that gay people are not gay sex. But your brain is set in concrete and you cannot understand that."

I have heard what you have said. I'm well aware (and I've already pointed this out more than a couple of times but you just ignore it in order to bolster your argument) that homosexuals are different than the act of homo sex. The problem is that you keep assuming that homosexuality is in-born and genetic and there simply is no proof of that. I already said that a person can be a Christian and yet at the same time struggle with homosexual desires as long as they recognize that those desires are not God-honoring and acknowledge them as sinful(which the Bible clearly says they are) and they are repentant of those desires. No, homosexuality is not merely an orientation. It IS a behavior and if someone has those desires and indulges them in their hearts and minds than it's just as if they have committed the act physically in God's eyes just like Jesus said that if a man looks at a woman lustfully he has already committed adultery. You are the one who sees what you want to see. You have homosexual desires and you seek to justify them and ignore what the Scriptures say about homosexuality or you try to manipulate them to try to make them sound like they don't condemn homosexuality which they plainly do.

Aaron

It's not that I don't want to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. It's just that I just don't see it in the Scriptures. Whenever it speaks of us being Raptured up to Jesus it refers to His Second Coming. The one passage that convinced me the most was and is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. It speaks of Christ's coming and our being gathered together with Him (the Rapture) and it makes no mention of a seven year gap between these two events. It basically refers to them as one event and it says that it won't happen until after the antichrist is revealed.

Devin

I have to disagree with you Aaron. Backing up Pre Trib Rapture are David Jeremiah, Jimmy DeYoung, Ron Rhodes, Tim Lahaye, Thomas Ice, Ed Hindson, Mark Hitchcock and many more. I trust their reading of the Bible over yours.

Aaron

And there are people like John Piper, James McDonald, R.C. Sproul, Alistair Begg, Hank Hanegraaf, C.S. Lewis, Albert Mohler and many other reputable Bible scholars who believe(d) Post-trib.

I have to say that I'm amazed that you will trust those scholars' reading of the Bible on Pre-Trib Rapture but you wholeheartedly reject what they have to say about homosexuality because I can guarantee you that all of those men, that you referenced, acknowledge the truth that the Bible condemns homosexuality as sin and that it needs to be repented of just like any other sin.

I sincerely encourage you Devin to not let yourself be deceived into thinking that you can nurture and cherish homosexual desires in your heart (even if you don't fulfill those desires physically with someone) and at the same time still be a Christian. You need to come into compliance with what the Bible says and reject those desires for the evil that they are. Jesus Christ died and rose again to set you free from them.

Devin

Aaron, I am gay. I will always be gay. It does not deny me a relationship with Christ. You may have a lotta biblical knowledge but you have no understanding of what it means to be gay. I wouldn't expect you to. When did you choose to be straight? I never made any such choice either. And you have no business calling me 'evil'. I am not a 'sin'. I think you have a lot to learn. Have a good Thanksgiving. I'm expecting snow. Oh well...

Aaron

I'm sorry that you have bought into the lie that homosexuality is your identity. It's nothing but a cover up and an excuse for sin. I didn't call you "evil" or a "sin." Stop twisting and distorting my words. I called homosexual desires "evil" and "sin" because that is what God has declared in the Scriptures. I'm merely acknowledging this and encouraging you, for your sake, to do the same. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving as well.

Devin

I identify as gay cos it's the truth. I identify as Christian cos that is the truth too. I am not covering up anything nor am I making any excuses. By calling all things gay 'evil' and 'sin' you are indeed calling me 'evil' and 'sin'. I am not manipulating anything, those are YOUR words. You know nothing about me or my circumstances. And you know nothing about being gay yet you feel you can mindlessly quote bible verses and somehow that makes you an expert on all things gay. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Why don't you pray for understanding instead of just rattling off bible verses?

Aaron

I already have the understanding that I need and that is what God plainly says about the sin of homosexuality in His Word. You saying that homosexuality is your identity is a rejection of Biblical truth. And yes, you ARE manipulating and distorting what I said. There is a difference between calling homosexuality sinful and evil and calling a person sinful and evil(though we all are sinful and evil without Christ). Implying that they are one and the same and saying that I am mindlessly quoting Bible verses is a total cop-out and you know it. You're the one quoting mindless repetition i.e. "wrong, wrong wrong." Why don't you agree with God that homosexuality is sinful and a perversion of his plan for marriage and sex like He has clearly articulated through the Bible and nature itself?

Devin

Because it is NOT 'clearly articulated'. Once upon a time the bible was used by 'believers' to justify slavery and later they justified segregation by quoting bible verses. And they could demean and marginalize women using the bible (and still do). It's all how you subjectively CHOOSE to interpret it. The fact that people are born gay tells me that certain people who dislike gays have CHOSEN to interpret the bible in such a way so as to demean and damn gays. It's really sad that you CHOOSE to belief it. Do you believe that once saved, always saved?

Aaron

Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 DO clearly articulate it. You have to be reading a different Bible if you believe that the Scriptures are not plain that homosexuality is sin.

As far as your argument about people using the Bible to justify slavery and segregation is concerned, that's just another underhanded diversionary tactic to avoid the plain language that the Scriptures use in its clear and unmistakable condemnation of homosexuality. You can say that the Bible is not clear on the subject of homosexuality being sin but you have given no legitimate argument for it and nor can you. Simply repeating "people are born gay" over and over and over and over again is not going to change the fact that one, there is no evidence for people being born homosexual and two, that God clearly says that it is sin.

Devin

Since the word 'homosexuality' was not even invented until the mid 19th century, homosexuality is not mentioned in the bible. There is nothing 'underhanded' or 'diversionary' in mentioning the fact that folks like you in olden days used the bible to support slavery and segregation. Yes, people are born gay. There is no way for you to deal with that fact except to rudely deny it. What you refer to as 'homosexuality' may have meant male temple prostitutes. It may have meant older men instructing teenage boys in sexual matters as occurred in Roman days. But it certainly does not apply to f'r instance two monogamous males who civilly marry and have a monogamous relationship thereafter. You really cannot get past the fact that gays are born that way in most cases cos then you are left with the questions as to how God could condemn someone for their innate sexual orientation. So you just say over and over and over again that people are not born gay when you know nothing of the kind. I have given you my arguments. They are legitimate. When they eventually prove that gay is innate, when the 75 genes involved have been verified, when hormonal influences have been factored in, you'll still be screaming and stomping your feet that 'no one is born gay' cos you will never accept it, no matter how clear the proof.

Aaron

"Since the word 'homosexuality' was not even invented until the mid 19th century, homosexuality is not mentioned in the bible."

This argument is totally bogus. So what if the word "homosexuality" wasn't invented until the 19th century. There were ancient Hebrew and Greek words for it and the concept of homosexuality is clearly described and condemned in the Bible. You're just trying to obfuscate and blur something that is plainly clear in the Scriptures.

"There is nothing 'underhanded' or 'diversionary' in mentioning the fact that folks like you in olden days used the bible to support slavery and segregation. Yes, people are born gay. There is no way for you to deal with that fact except to rudely deny it."

Oh yes, it is underhanded and diversionary because you're comparing apples to oranges. First off, the Bible doesn't condemn or condone slavery. It just acknowledges that it exists and that those who have slaves are to take care of them and provide for them properly and those slaves who can gain their freedom should but the Bible doesn't condone any kind of harsh slavery or any kind of prejudiced segregation. That's why Martin Luther King Jr appealed to the Bible in rejection of segregation. That's why William Wilberforce appealed to the Bible in rejection of the slave trade espoused during the 1700s and 1800s in England.

"What you refer to as 'homosexuality' may have meant male temple prostitutes. It may have meant older men instructing teenage boys in sexual matters as occurred in Roman days. But it certainly does not apply to f'r instance two monogamous males who civilly marry and have a monogamous relationship thereafter."

No, the word for "homosexuality" in the Greek referred to homosexuality in general and so did the Hebrew terms used to describe it in the Old Testament. Leviticus 18:22 for example, plainly refers to homosexuality in general and makes no reference to prostitution as you inferred. The idea of "monogamous homosexual relationships" is not referred to in the Bible because it clearly teaches that the only legitimate form of marriage that God ordained was between a man and a woman and He makes it blatantly obvious just from the nature and anatomy of the human body.

"You really cannot get past the fact that gays are born that way in most cases cos then you are left with the questions as to how God could condemn someone for their innate sexual orientation."

No, you are making an unverifiable assumption that people are born homosexual and you twist the argument to assume that people are born that way because if you don't then you are left with having to accept the fact that it IS a sin that God demands that you repent of. But you don't want to repent of it and so you accept the desperate and fallacious argument of being born that way in order to justify the sin in your own mind.

"So you just say over and over and over again that people are not born gay when you know nothing of the kind. I have given you my arguments. They are legitimate. When they eventually prove that gay is innate, when the 75 genes involved have been verified, when hormonal influences have been factored in, you'll still be screaming and stomping your feet that 'no one is born gay' cos you will never accept it, no matter how clear the proof."

Nice try trying to copy my point about how you're the one that keeps repeating stuff over and over and over again with no evidence or legitimacy to back it up but that was just another act of desperation on your part to deny something so obvious. You claim to be a Christian but you're rejecting what God says about this issue in favor of what the world says. Also, I don't know where you get the idea that genetics has proven that homosexuality is innate or that people are born that way. If that was the case then there would not be so many twins that are born where one is a homosexual and the other is heterosexual. If it was genetic then you would at least see nearly 100% of cases where one twin is homosexual and so is the other but studies have shown that less than 50% of those instances are cases where both twins are homosexual. Sorry, but the evidence just isn't there and it's a pipe dream on your part to think that it will ever be a proven fact but something tells me that you will continue to grasp at those straws nonetheless.

Devin

Aaron, your replies are weak and pointless. You seem to think that by repeating my comments you can somehow refute them when you cannot. Your comments are the ones which are 'bogus'. No, there are no ancient Hebrew or Greek words for 'homosexuality' and the concept of modern gay sexual orientation was unknown. (You really like the word 'obfuscate' don't you?). 'Apples and oranges'? I don't think so. The bible WAS used to justify and condone slavery and you cannot rewrite history by mentioning King and Wilberforce.

However do you claim to 'know' what the ancient Greeks meant by the modern word 'homosexuality'? You are simply creating your own history as you wish it to be. Actually you know nothing of the kind. Aaron, you see what you wanna see and then you make up the rest and then assure yourself that everything you WANT to be true is true. But I am not buying it.

You do not know anything about gay folks. Your smug ignorance is appalling. Why ever is it so important to you that you deny the truth that gay people are born gay? Because, if people are born gay then God is cast in a bad light and you cannot bear that, right? You might have to admit that you and bigots like you have misinterpreted the holy book at least in this one instance.

BTW, there are plenty of twins who are not born both gay due to the fact that even identical twins have different reactions to hormonal influences while in the womb. One may be more profoundly affected by the androgen which surrounds them. So your 'twins study' is meaningless. Try reading up on the subject before you make wild claims.

Talk about someone being desperate! Aaron, you are totally desperate in your weak arguments and you are merely repeating the words of people like the pompous Michael Brown and the equally pompous Joe Dallas. Again, if you knew any gay people you would come to the shocking conclusion by actually talking to us that we were born gay and then you would have to reorder your thinking about how you selectively interpret the bible.

Aaron

Oh yes there are ancient Greek and Hebrew words that refer to and describe the concept of homosexuality. Arsenokoitai in the Greek is one and the Hebrew words used in Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 plainly refer to homosexuality per se. You're the one that needs to do some research but you won't accept the plain language of the Bible on this subject because YOU are the one who WANTS to believe that there are no such words in the Bible. Well just because YOU want to believe that doesn't change the fact that the Bible IS straightforward on the concept of homosexuality. And yes, of course I use the word "obfuscate" because that's exactly what you are doing when you bring up people misusing the Bible to justify demeaning slavery and prejudiced segregation. This in no way suggests nor proves that the Bible is being misused on the subject of homosexuality. That would be like saying that because the Bible was misused to condone slavery and segregation that the Bible is also being misused to condemn incest and bestiality. It makes absolutely no sense on your part to reason that way so my point on Martin Luther King Jr and William Wilberforce was well taken.

As far as twins studies goes, I actually did do research on it and it's not hard to comprehend despite your flippant dismissal. Twins are made from the same DNA and have the same genetic structure so if homosexuality is in the genes as you erroneously keep asserting, then, as I said before, at least nearly 100% of them would both be homosexual but it's not even close. Studies have shown that only 11% to 14% of them are both homosexual. Your points about hormones and androgen don't refute any of this. The only reason you're dismissing this evidence is because it's devastating to your argument.

You're comments and arguments get more and more ridiculous and laughable each time. And when you can't present anything legitimate in refutation, you start name calling which is childish and reveals more of your desperation. And as I've mentioned already, I don't need to know homosexuals personally to know whether or not homosexuality is sin anymore then I need to know an incestuous person in order to know whether or not incest is sin and the same could be said for drunkards, adulterers, thieves, murderers, etc, etc. God has plainly shown us in the Scriptures and in the nature and anatomy of the human body that homosexuality is a sinful and immoral choice so I'm going to take His word over yours and society's thank you very much.

Devin

Wow, talk about desperation and hostility! I'm not gonna bother with your silly arguments cos nothing I say will touch your conscience, you are so set in cement. I do hope at some point in your life you do meet someone who is gay and the scales will fall from your eyes.

Aaron

No, no desperation or hostility. I just choose to accept God's view on this issue instead of yours and I refuse to be manipulated by your emotional fallacies.

Devin

But it's NOT God's view, it's your choice of interpretation. Manipulation? I don't think so. Emotional fallacies? What? Aaron, you are desperate whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. And you are definitely hostile. I'd say you have quite a struggle with rigidity and with hatred. That's a known trait of fundamentalists.

Aaron

But the Scriptures plainly say that it IS God's view. All you have to do is read the Scriptures I referenced throughout this discussion and anyone with an ounce of comprehension can understand it. Also, as has been pointed out time and time again, the nature of the human body makes it totally obvious that God's intent was for a man to be with a woman and vice versa. For you to say that God does not condemn homosexuality is to deny nature and the clear teaching of Scripture and it's a bold-faced lie. And yes, you do try to manipulate with false emotional accusations of hatred, bigotry and ignorance which are totally baseless and typical of people who wish to justify sin. When someone like me doesn't let you get away with it then you try to shout louder with an exorbitant amount of repetition to try to put people under unjustified guilt trips. I don't buy it and never will. Homosexuality is unnatural and immoral. Period.

Devin

As I have been trying to tell you, Aaron, your ignorance is so great, so stultifying that it makes no sense for me to waste my time on you. No doubt you would cheer on Rev. Steven L. Anderson who to be biblically correct is urging the execution of gays. Is that the kind of gospel you espouse? Or are you more in league with Rev, Donnie Romero who has announced that no gays (he used more obscene, insulting, and colorful language than that) would be allowed in his church. Sounds like your kinda people. Again, your ignorance is horrifying.

Aaron

"As I have been trying to tell you, Aaron, your ignorance is so great, so stultifying that it makes no sense for me to waste my time on you."

Like I said before, this is a perfect example of you using the false accusation of "ignorance" to try to manipulate. Your accusation of ignorance is a cop-out to try to hide behind because you don't want to deal with what God has said about the sin of homosexuality.

"No doubt you would cheer on Rev. Steven L. Anderson who to be biblically correct is urging the execution of gays. Is that the kind of gospel you espouse? Or are you more in league with Rev, Donnie Romero who has announced that no gays (he used more obscene, insulting, and colorful language than that) would be allowed in his church. Sounds like your kinda people."

These illegitimate comments are examples of your ridiculous accusations of hatred. Just because I accept what God has said about homosexuality and you have rejected it does not mean that I endorse or espouse the killing of homosexuals or the complete isolation of them. You're just building a straw man argument that's easy to knock down and it's a totally dishonest and cheap way to try to bolster your argument. Again, the levels of desperation that you stoop to to try to demonize and berate anyone who has the common sense to see homosexuality for the perversion that it is, are staggering.

Devin

Aaron, commenting on your ignorance (and arrogance) is exactly right to the point. It is in no way a 'false accusation'. I've already told you that God did not create an English-speaking bible but you cannot deal with that. So stop wasting my time. The fact that you have chosen to engage in this long drawn-out conversation displays your hatred so it is not a 'ridiculous accusation' in any way. You would have signed off long ago if you were not motivated by hatred for gays. I assure you, I am in no way 'desperate', just amused.

Aaron

No, you're leveling the fallacious accusation of ignorance because you can't think of anything legitimate to say in refutation. Just because I have the common sense to acknowledge that God made us male and female for a very clear reason and you don't does not make me ignorant. And I've already told you that the Hebrew and Greek languages condemn homosexuality as well so your point about using an English Bible is irrelevant and does nothing for your argument. Also, the fact that you continue to use dishonest and baseless accusations of hatred DOES reveal how desperate you are to justify something perverted and sinful no matter how much you deny it.

Devin

Aaron, I have already told you plenty of reasons to doubt your chosen interpretation of the bible. I've already said everything that needs to be said and see no reason to go back over it. I continue to believe that there is some very deep animus on your part behind what you seem to think is 'common sense'. You wouldn't be writing here if there were not some depth of hatred for gays. You just wanna believe that you are defending God who does not need any defense.

Aaron

No, you haven't given one single legitimate argument that refutes what the Scriptures say on this issue. Forget it. I'm not going to be manipulated by your efforts to confuse and confound the Bible which is very simple and straightforward about homosexuality. Your efforts to continue in that vein are flat out deceptive and distorted. I'm also not going to be manipulated by your pretentious allegations of hatred. You insist on using false emotional arguments because you have no rational argument that justifies this sin. You say that I continue to write here because of hatred? No, but you continue to write because you want to grasp at straws and scrape the bottom of the barrel desperate to believe that homosexuality is not perverted. "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil..." Isaiah 5:20

Devin

Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, why do I waste my time on you? I prayed a lot to know how to answer you in a way that would break thru your rigidity. The Holy Spirit pointed out to me that you cannot trust the translators of the Bible which were written and copied down by a world which despised gays. Nothing about gays was understood just as psychology was not understood. If you believe the O.T. words against same sex relationships then why aren't you calling for our imprisonment and execution? If you were true to your beliefs why don't you go all the way and demand our deaths? That is what the Holy Spirit has asked me to communicate to you.

I am constantly amused by your claims that I somehow 'manipulate' you. That seems to indicate to me that your heart and mind are not joined. Perhaps my POV is finally sinking in and you are fighting your own uncertainty. Oh, I know you'll deny it. You are desperately attempting to believe all the cement-like things you have said here. If you were smart enuf you would admit to at least a smidgeon of uncertainty. That is what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me about you.

Aaron

You saying that the Bible was written down by people who despised homosexuals is about as descriptive of reality as saying that the Bible was written down by people who despised adulterers, murderers, drunkards, thieves, pedophiles, etc, etc. What a weak and lame argument! And yes, I will continue to point out your deceptive manipulation. Be amused to your heart's content(as if you saying that you're amused by it nullifies the fact that you are trying to manipulate). Also, the reason I don't call for their execution is the same reason Jesus didn't call for the execution of the woman caught in adultery in John 8:1-11. But Jesus didn't attempt to dishonestly condone adultery the way you are with homosexuality.

You saying that the Holy Spirit told you to say all that is a pretentious smokescreen. I'm not going to admit to any uncertainty on this issue because there isn't any according to the Scriptures. The bottom line is you're so desperate to condone something wicked because you love it that you will twist and distort the Scriptures and berate and falsely accuse anyone who has the integrity to acknowledge what the Bible clearly says about homosexuality which is really pathetic and sad.

Devin

So Aaron, what did I say that upset you so badly? Was it the part about how I pray about what I should say to you? Actually I think I have been more than gracious with you considering the outrageous things you have said about gay people. Then again, Michael Brown has some pretty outrageous things in his books but he managed to get them published somehow.

Are you offended that I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Does that make you question your fundamentalism? I can see that I am wasting my time with you.

Aaron

It doesn't matter how much you say that you pray about what to say when you are flat out denying what the Scriptures plainly say. And then you hypocritically claim that I am the one who is trying to make the Bible say what I want it to say. Anyone who knows anything about the Bible knows that it has declared homosexuality a sin and it doesn't matter if you're reading it in English, Hebrew, Greek, French or whatever. So in answer to your question; no, I'm not offended by you saying that you're praying. It's just disturbing that your prayers are so misguided. As to whether or not you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, 1 John 2:3-4 sure does make me concerned about the validity of that claim.

Devin

Yeah, I knew you would eventually get around to questioning my Christianity. I prayed to be saved in Christ as a 5 yr. old, long before I was aware of being gay. I have rededicated myself to the Lord since then and I experience the Holy Spirit's presence daily. I have PTSD and I depend solely on the Lord to get me thru each day. I would not question the Bible's accuracy if it were not for the fact that I know that most gay folks are born gay. That being the case, I know that something is very wrong with the entire concept that gays are in some way an 'abomination'. If I am wrong then I will certainly apologize to God, but I do not believe that there are a group of people damned by God before they are even born. Your fundamentalism is an affront to God.

Aaron

Anyone can say that they have prayed a prayer or rededicated themselves but if we continue in rebellious thoughts and/or actions that God has commanded us to repent of and we willfully refuse to repent then according to 1 John 2:3-4, which I referenced earlier, we have no grounds for any assurance before God that we are saved. Read the passage. Those aren't my words, those are God's.

"I would not question the Bible's accuracy if it were not for the fact that I know that most gay folks are born gay. That being the case, I know that something is very wrong with the entire concept that gays are in some way an 'abomination'. "

Again, this is a presupposition on your part that has no merit. There is no evidence that people are born homosexual so there is no reason for us to assume that God didn't know what He was talking about when He condemned homosexuality as sin in the Scriptures that He inspired.

"If I am wrong then I will certainly apologize to God, but I do not believe that there are a group of people damned by God before they are even born. Your fundamentalism is an affront to God."

Nothing has been said or implied about a group of people being damned before they are born so that comment doesn't do anything for you to prove your argument. However, that does bring up a good point. We are all sinners and are on our way to Hell until we repent of our sins and turn to Jesus in faith and God knows all this before we are even born.

Devin

My thoughts and actions are NOT rebellious. If you knew the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life, you would not attempt to cast doubt on my salvation. As a matter of fact, your rigid fundamentalism makes me doubt your salvation. You have no grace, no mercy, no understanding. You do not know gay people (or think you don't) so you cannot make such a silly claim that people are not born gay. Gay is NOT a choice. Gay is NOT a lifestyle. Just cos you are uneducated and ignorant about gays, you have no business (along with Michael Brown) demeaning us. Maybe you should meet and mingle with some gay folks. Then you might become a genuine Christian and not just the plastic Christian you come across as.

Aaron

According to the God-inspired Scriptures, YES, your defense and rationalization of homosexuality is rebellious against God. And for you to say that I have no grace or mercy or understanding is a baseless and false guilt trip. Just because I take an unwavering stand on what God has plainly spoken about in His Word does not equal having no grace or love or that I am not a Christian. It most likely means the exact opposite.

Just because I don't have friends who are homosexual that I regularly hang out with does not mean that I can't have enough common sense to understand that homosexuality IS a behavior and lifestyle just like incest or adultery are behaviors and lifestyles. Knowing homosexuals personally is not grounds for making the outrageous claim that their homosexuality is something they are born with and can't repent of. This also doesn't make me ignorant so you can stop with that fallacious accusation as well. As I've indicated before, calling someone ignorant just because they acknowledge homosexuality for what it is is a weak and lame accusation used because you have nothing rational or legit to say in refutation.

Devin

So you DO feel guilty about your inability to show grace or mercy or understanding. I am starting to doubt that you are a genuine Christian. Gay is NOT a behavior or a lifestyle. It is a innate sexual orientation. Too bad that you cannot see that the Bible is not 'simple' but your interpretation of it certainly is. There resides your 'Christian' problem. You have chosen to enmesh yourself in fundamentalism. That doesn't make you a Christian. You unfortunately live in a black and white world which is NOT reality. So of course you are not able to understand Christ. You have no empathy. That's why whenever I say something which begins to break thru your 'Christian' veneer you accuse me of manipulation.

Aaron

"So you DO feel guilty about your inability to show grace or mercy or understanding."

I already answered this phony accusation so I don't know why you are repeating it. You sound like a broken record.

"Gay is NOT a behavior or a lifestyle. It is a innate sexual orientation. Too bad that you cannot see that the Bible is not 'simple' but your interpretation of it certainly is."

This again has been answered time and time again. Homosexuality is CLEARLY a behavior and lifestyle just like incest and adultery. And it doesn't matter how much you dismiss it as simply my interpretation. The Bible condemns homosexuality in no uncertain terms.

"You have chosen to enmesh yourself in fundamentalism. That doesn't make you a Christian. You unfortunately live in a black and white world which is NOT reality."

Adhering to the fundamentals of the Bible is not anything to be ashamed of. It is a characteristic of a true Christian. And yes, the Bible is very black and white when it comes to homosexuality.

"That's why whenever I say something which begins to break thru your 'Christian' veneer you accuse me of manipulation."

No, I point out your manipulation because that is exactly what you are doing. Whenever I point out the fact that the Bible condemns homosexuality(which it obviously does) you keep trying to argue with baseless emotional accusations of "hatred," "ignorance," and "no mercy." Since you have no rational refutation you resort to pretentious emotional tactics. That is manipulation.

Devin

I am giving up on you, Aaron. You are wasting my time. You are blind to your mistaken interpretation of the Bible. No, the world is NOT black and white and you are not a genuine Christian since you have no grace, no mercy, no compassion, and no understanding of folks who are not exactly like you. I am sure the Lord is very disappointed in you.

Aaron

No, no mistaken interpretation. If you're going to try to continue to argue that homosexuality is natural and morally acceptable, you're going to have to do it without the Bible and Christianity because they don't condone it in any way shape or form. You're only denying the Bible's unmistakable condemnation of homosexuality because you want to hang on to that sin and then hide behind the cop-out of "oh, I'm just born this way." The Bible is black and white on this issue. If I were to deny this reality I would be being completely dishonest. And again, acknowledging this does not make me graceless, merciless or any of the other phony accusations you keep spewing at me.

Devin

Aaron, I am not 'spewing' anything. I am talking quite calmly and reasonably. Gay folks are born gay. No way you can get around that fact. It is as 'black and white' as your interpretation of the Bible. I have to question your Christianity cos you are without grace or mercy, compassion or understanding. But then that is the definition of the typical fundamentalist. Y'know, the Pharisee of Christianity. It must be horrible to be you.

Aaron

You are definitely spewing fallacious and bogus allegations to try to vainly bolster your argument with them. And homosexuality is a behavior and lifestyle and you are being totally dishonest by denying and ignoring such an obvious fact. The Bible is black and white about homosexuality despite your erroneous presupposition that it's only my interpretation. The Scriptures could not be more plain. The comparison of me to a Pharisee is yet another desperate attempt of futility on your part to paint an unfair caricature of me to try to make yourself feel more comfortable in your sin.

Devin

Actually I am more concerned about YOUR sin, the sin of a Christian Pharisee. Again, I am not 'spewing' anything. I guess you are unable to perceive the tone of my voice by my words. I am really very sorry for you (and anyone who knows you). It must be horrible to be you. Gay is NOT a behavior. If you do not know anyone who is gay, how do you come to be such an expert on what gay means, or how gay folks 'became' gay? Gay is not a lifestyle. Is Christian a lifestyle?. And come to that, when did you DECIDE or CHOOSE to be het? You didn't? Well, gay folks do not make a choice to be gay and it is most unfortunate that you cannot accept this FACT. The Bible is NOT simple although many of the people who read it are. You are really mean-spirited and that is a sad thing to say about someone who considers himself to be a Christian.

Aaron

Acknowledging the truth that the Bible calls homosexuality sin, and therefore it IS a behavior and lifestyle, does not make a Pharisee. You are spewing out bogus allegations in a desperate effort to avoid dealing with this fact. Enough with the childish name-calling already! I've also addressed your weak argument about not knowing a lot of homosexuals. I don't have to do that in order to have the common sense that homosexuality is a behavior just like incest or bestiality. The Bible is very simple and uncomplicated when it comes to the sin of homosexuality. I am not being mean-spirited. You're only calling me that because you don't like it when someone has the guts to tell you what God has explicitly said about this because you can't handle the truth. Pure and simple.

Devin

You are SO wrong, I don't know where to start. So maybe I won't bother with you. I have given plenty of good arguments for my POV and just cos you do not like them does not mean they are weak or desperate. I think the only person here who is 'desperate' is you with your constant repetition. No, again, gay is NOT a behavior and it is NOT a lifestyle. What you seem to see as common sense I see as pig-headedness. And you ARE mean-spirited. It comes across in the tone of your voice here. You are a Pharisee of Christianity, that is what is plain and simple. Examine yourself and your motives sometime, huh?

Aaron

"I think the only person here who is 'desperate' is you with your constant repetition."

This adequately describes you my friend. The only reason I keep repeating myself is because you keep bringing up the same fallacious and ridiculous arguments to try to make the Bible seem vague and ambiguous about homosexuality which it clearly is not.

Homosexuality is not a behavior and lifestyle? Sorry. Like I said before, I'm going to take God's word over yours and God has commanded that people repent of that sin just like any other and if He demands repentance from it then it obviously is not something people are born with like their color of skin or eyes. You can deny common sense all you want to but it only makes you sound insanely desperate to justify immorality. If I was being mean-spirited then you are the pot calling the kettle black especially since you have stooped so low to call me bogus names such as a Pharisee, which is only because you don't want to hear the truth, and judging my heart as "hateful" and "no mercy" simply because I acknowledge what the Bible plainly says and you don't want to deal with it. But I haven't been mean-spirited. You are only trying to make me feel guilty for taking an unwavering stand for what God says and are angry with me because I'm not manipulated by your phony allegations.

Devin

Actually, Aaron, I feel very sorry for you. And very sorry for anyone who knows you. I've tried to help you see the truth but ever the good Pharisee, you will not be moved. Your self-righteousness is sickening to read. So I am done with you. I tried to help you but you refuse my help. Too bad. Should you actually make it to Heaven one day you will have to be confronted by the gay people there and explain yourself. For that matter so will Michael Brown.

Aaron

Help me see the truth? The truth is in the Scriptures which you constantly deny. You are the one who should be warned. If you continue on this path of hypocrisy, claiming to be a follower of Jesus and yet promoting and approving of sin, you will have to be confronted by Jesus Himself and all the other homosexuals that you led astray by influencing them to continue in immoral behavior that they will be judged for.

Devin

Perhaps you did not get my point? I am done with you. The Lord is my shepherd. You have insulted gay folk in your discussion here and I am tired of it. Michael Brown's book reveals what a Pharisee he is and some day he will have to answer for his egregious attitude. You will too.

Aaron

Then be done with me already then. I'm sorry that you're offended by the truth but the truth is what it is and the Bible is clear. God's fine with Michael Brown and myself on this issue because we agree with Him about it. If you don't repent and agree with God too, then you will have to answer for your love and approval of this sin.

Devin

Aaron, I am not offended by you nor am I offended by what I KNOW to be the truth. Gay folk are born gay. God knows that even if you and Michael Brown do not. I am not willing to believe that God has doomed all of the gay children born into this world because of a hormonal, genetic variation. That is not godly. I am fully willing to believe that God does not approve of wild sexual excess in gays or in hets. But that is not the same thing as being gay. But what's the use on trying yet again to explain this to you. You and Michael prefer ignorance.

Aaron

Homosexuals are not born that way according to what God has said. It is a sinful behavior that is to be repented of and again, there is no evidence that it is genetic and there never will be so your point about God dooming all homosexuals because of some genetic make up is pointless and has no validity. What you THINK you know is not truth according to what God says in the Scriptures and I will take His word over yours. Call it ignorance all you want to but that again is just a weak, flippant retort because you have nothing to say to refute the fact that homosexuals are NOT born that way.

Devin

Aaron, gay people are BORN gay! Gay people know this is a fact from personal experience. Most gay people know from the time they are 4 or 5 yrs. old that they are 'different'. It takes a few more years before we recognize just what that difference is and what it means. (One of the things it means is having to put up with ignorant people like you and Michael Brown who know nothing about being gay yet feel compelled to demean us.) This means that you are misunderstanding the Bible and God. It also means you are damning little children to Hell cos of something they have no control over. (And please don't believe Michael Brown's nonsense about 'ex-gays'. There is no such thing. Just gays who are either in denial or are so stressed out by people like you who use the Bible against them that they haven't the guts to deal with their gayness.) Yes, you and your ilk have a lot to answer for and your cruelty to gays, your derision of gays will be something you will have to answer for before God one day.

Aaron

Homosexuals are NOT born homosexual. Homosexuality has not been proven to be genetic anymore than adultery, incest or bestiality and your repetitiveness on that pointless point is laughable. There is no misunderstanding of the Bible and God especially with such uncomplicated and unmistakable texts such "man shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman." Therefore, no one is being condemned over something they can't control or repent of.

Regardless of your outrageous, judgmental and arrogant assumption that everyone who claims to be a former homosexual is in denial, yes, there are people who have repented of their homosexuality. It doesn't mean that they will never feel tempted to engage in homosexuality ever again but that can be said of any sinful behavior that someone may have engaged in before but still feels tempted to go back to like adultery, fornication or alcoholism. What it does mean is that they recognize that the behavior(and it IS behavior) is sinful and offensive to God and they turn from it by the strength that God gives.

Telling homosexuals the truth is not something I will have to answer for in eternity. You will have to answer for engaging in and promoting immoral behavior and encouraging other people to persist in that behavior that they will be judged for one day. And you do all of that in the name of Jesus Christ which is absolute hypocrisy.

Devin

Gee Aaron, you're getting a little hot under the collar, aren't you? Is that because you know your argument is so weak? You can stamp your little feet and pout all you want but your claims are unsustainable. Sexual excess (gay and straight) is to be avoided obviously. But that doesn't have anything to do with someone simply identifying as gay. You can call me all the names you want but that doesn't mean that you or Michael Brown have one iota of knowledge about being gay. He (Michael Brown) is the blind leading the blind (you). Can't you come up with any other excuse to justify hating gays besides 'the Bible says so'? Your anger at gays needs to be repented of, perhaps the Holy Spirit will open your eyes. Otherwise, you are in a whole lotta trouble with God.

And speaking of Michael Brown, do you ever listen to his radio show? He is incredibly egotistical, claiming that everything he says and writes is IMPORTANT and revolutionary. His book reflects his egotism. Frankly, Aaron, your excuses for demeaning gays are based on the same egotistical baloney. Now, do me a favor and go away.

Aaron

Dude, you know you're the one with the weak arguments and you're the one throwing a childish temper tantrum because your points keep getting legitimately refuted left and right. You have no proof or any reason to say that homosexuality is genetic and you have no basis whatsoever for denying the fact that God, in the Scriptures, has condemned homosexuality as sin and He has also made it blatantly obvious from nature itself that homosexuality is unnatural and perverted. And I haven't called you names. You've got me confused with yourself because you're the only one whose been name calling in this discussion clearly.

Can't you come up with any logical retort other than baseless and lame accusations of hatred, ignorance and egoism? As I've said before, acknowledging the truth that homosexuality is sin does not make me hateful, ignorant or even egotistical(Seriously?! C'mon!). You need to do yourself and other people a favor and stop spreading lies about God and Christianity when it comes to this sexual immorality. As far as I'm concerned, I know God is pleased with me on this issue because I accept what He has said so your false guilt trips aren't going to work. Give it up already.

Devin

Aaron, I've tried to deal with you in a fairly light-hearted way because that is all you and your 'arguments' deserve. Your (and Michael Brown's) arrogance and ignorance are appalling. In case you missed my point I see no point in 'arguing' with you because you are blind and happy to be so. Your name-calling against gays is simply atrocious and your misunderstanding of what gay means is obvious. I will again point out that you and Michael Brown (in his book and on his radio show) reveal a complete lack of comprehension about gays. Guilt trip? Well, yes, you should feel guilty for your condemnation of something you don't even understand.

I think we should conclude this discussion in Heaven. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for you.

Aaron

I wouldn't call your false accusations and name-calling lighthearted. And as I said before, I have not called you names and you know that good and well so for you to continue to accuse me of name-calling is willful dishonesty. You are the blind one my friend and you are willfully blind to what the Scriptures explicitly say regarding the sin of homosexuality. Your claims of me misunderstanding this issue is an extremely desperate and feeble dismissal in an attempt to avoid dealing with God's unmistakable condemnation of homosexuality. Therefore, your guilt trips are false and totally deserving of being disregarded. The bottom line is that homosexuality is sinful behavior and it's unfortunate that you love that sin so much that you will persist in promoting it and downplaying the wickedness of it and then demean and falsely accuse anyone who would tell the truth about it.

I agree that the discussion should conclude but hopefully people who read our discussion will not be deceived and will accept what God says over your twisted and skewed logic.

Devin

Yes, you have called gays names by likening gay with incest and other demeaning things. You have no knowledge or understanding of what it means to be gay so you have absolutely no business shooting off your mouth - as Michael Brown constantly does - about anything gay. It's up to you to resolve the conflict about what you think the bible has to say about gay people and the truth of the gay experience. No, gay is NOT a behavior, when will you get that through your head? It is an innate identity. Too bad you can't figure that out. Being gay is NOT a sin. Can you be gay and Christian - as Michael Brown's title asks? The answer is YES.

You need to repent of your hard-heartedness and mean spirit. I hope that some day you will be able to have grace in your heart towards gay folk. Some day in Heaven you may have a lot to answer for, for your denunciation and demeaning of people God cares a lot about. The fundamentalist church has done a lot to outrage gays, to turn them away from Christ and salvation. Please consider this. Some people talk about meeting folks in Heaven who they 'led to Christ'. But people like you and your ilk will be confronted by the Lord Jesus with the destruction of people you turned away from Him by your atrocious ungodly behavior. The Holy Spirit is trying to wake you up to confess this sin but you choose blindness. May Christ have mercy on your soul.

Aaron

Look, the comparison to incest and adultery that I made is not the same as name-calling so enough with that pretentious allegation already. BTW, those are legitimate comparisons because they are all forms of sexual immorality according to what God has ordained. YES, homosexuality IS a behavior and it IS a sin. God has made this unmistakable and obvious. And the question really isn't "Can you be gay and Christian." The question is "Can you be an unrepentant homosexual and Christian" and the answer, according to what God says in the Scriptures, is NO and it is completely arrogant of you to say otherwise.

You need to repent of your sexual immorality and you need to repent of your lying about and falsely accusing people like me. Accepting what God has declared regarding this sin does not equal hatred or hard-heartedness so I will continue to disregard your worthless and erroneous accusations for the sham that they are. If homosexuals turn away from Jesus because of being told that they need to repent then that's on them. God holds them responsible for not believing and accepting what He has commanded. You and they will have to answer to Jesus for your love and rationalization of sin and all the lies and evil that you spoke of regarding those who told them the truth. The Holy Spirit wants you to repent of this hypocrisy. Hopefully God will grant you true repentance.

Devin

Aaron, you really are a sad sad case. That says about it all. You are blind to YOUR sin and YOU need to repent of it. But you won't. Your arrogance and fundamentalism have made you mean-spirited and hard-hearted. I've pointed that out before. Michael Brown is actually more sympathetic than you are. He is just a manic egotist as you can tell from his book and from his radio show. But you don't have any excuse. I have NOT lied here in any way nor falsely accused you of anything. Gays turn away from Christ because of the hatred you and your ilk express. YOU will be held responsible for that. The Holy Spirit wants YOU to repent of your hatred.

Aaron

What is really sad and pathetic is the depths that you will go to to misrepresent the God you say you believe in and your attempts to rationalize this sin through your distorted and wacky reasoning is a backhanded way of saying that God doesn't know what He's talking about. You call evil good and good evil and that is what is truly arrogant. Also, what is truly hateful is the fact that you call me "hateful" for defending what God has to say about this whole issue. And then, when you are confronted with your hypocrisy you dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole by continuing to falsely accusing me of hatred and arrogance and then you deny that obvious fact.

Homosexuals like you have described are ultimately turned away by the truth because, like you, they don't want to deal with and accept it. And when someone like me doesn't let them get away with rationalizing it, they shout louder and use false allegations to get people to shut up. Sorry, I'm not going to shut up about it when people like you continue to lead other people astray and make up excuses for people to remain in that bondage.

Devin

Wake up Aaron! You cannot deal with the fact that gays are born gay. Being gay is not bondage, it is one's innate identity. Sorry you cannot understand that. I do not doubt your salvation but I doubt that the Lord is pleased with YOUR behavior or your mean spirit. You couldn't be more different from Jesus. You are a fundamentalist, a Pharisee, not the kind of person Jesus wanted to hang around with. Don't you care that you must grieve the Holy Spirit with your hard heart? I often wonder about Michael Brown and how he can justify his lies about gay folk. But I don't wonder about you cos you obviously do not know any better. I pray that the Lord will open your eyes and help you shake off your willful blindness.

Aaron

Again, the bottom line is that homosexuality is condemned as sin by God in the Scriptures and all I am doing is acknowledging this fact and encouraging you for your sake and for the sake of those who may be deceived by your distorted and twisted reasoning to stop making excuses for this wickedness. No, people are not born homosexual anymore than they are born adulterous, promiscuous, incestuous, etc. Homosexuality is not in the genes and your outrageous assumption that it is genetic like the color of our skin or eyes is ludicrous. You can make all the worn out, repetitive and pretentious arguments that you want to i.e. "you're just ignorant Aaron; you're just a hard-hearted Pharisee; you're hateful." etc, etc. Nothing but meaningless and powerless arguments that are just a weak deflection to try to cast an emotional spell over people who call sin "sin" and to avoid dealing with it. I've prayed that you will stop your hypocrisy, calling other people blind when it clearly is you who are willfully blind to your sin and rationalization of it.

Devin

Aaron, how do you 'know' that gay isn't genetic? Because you know that when it is proven to be genetic you will no longer be able to hold on to your simplistic misinterpretation of various bible verses. Gay is NOT a 'behavior'. What is 'wicked' is the way Christians treat gay folk to such an extent that they would never consider attending a church or opening a bible or listening to a gospel message. You and your ilk are damning people to Hell because your message is SO obnoxious. Look at the destruction your behavior causes! You should repent of it. You are condemning yourself to the Lord's displeasure.

Aaron

Oh for goodness sakes! Give it up already! Homosexuality IS a behavior and a sin and you know it good and well. Your absurd and ridiculous idea that it is genetic is just a cop-out. That makes as much sense as saying that incest and alcoholism and bestiality are genetic. As I've said before, it's nothing but a useless and vain attempt to justify the sin in your own mind.

I'm not going to give in to your phony and superficial accusations. The main reason that homosexuals turn away from Jesus and the church is because they refuse to repent of their sin and embrace Jesus for all that He is. According to the Scriptures, Jesus doesn't accept excuses for your sin and that is exactly what you are attempting to do, make excuses. You're the one who is going to have to answer for your rationalization and promotion of sinful BEHAVIOR that He died to set you (and the people you deceive) free from.

Devin

If anyone needs to 'repent' Aaron, it is you. You have a lotta problems with gay people, don't you? You can't even bring yourself to say the word 'gay'. Gay is not a lifestyle. Fundamentalism is. Gay is not a behavior. Your concept of religion is. The genetic basis for gayness is NOT a 'cop-out' in any way. It is very real. Even if gay 'behavior' were a sin, BEING gay is not. It is a sexual orientation. You can deny that until you are blue in the face and your simplistic point of view will still hold no water. But nothing I say is going to change your mind, I can see that. I hope that you will repent of your sinful attitude towards gay folk. I hope the Holy Spirit will awaken your conscience and convince you of your mean-spirit, something you really need to confess and repent of.

Aaron

No, you can't bring yourself to call "gay" what it really is; homosexuality that is wicked behavior. And their is no basis for saying that it is genetic which I've already demonstrated to you time and time again but you ignore it because you want to hold on to your precious little cop-out (and yes, it IS a cop-out). So what if you want to call it an "orientation." You don't gain anything in the argument by saying that. Even if it is, then it is a sinful orientation according to God.

You can call my view simplistic and say that it holds no water until your blue in the face but until you can show me a passage in the Bible that says otherwise, your flippant dismissal is pointless and will be nothing but a weak and futile attempt to continue to rationalize this immoral behavior in your own mind. I hope that you will repent of your sinful and dishonest defense of what God calls sin and that the Holy Spirit will pull the blinders off of your eyes so that you will stop deceiving and being deceived.

Devin

Aaron, you have not 'demonstrated' anything! You merely ranted that gay is not genetic cos that's how you want it to be. Nonsense. You have proven nothing. I cannot explain how or why God would be so down on gays but I do know that a gay orientation is inborn, y'know, something that you are born with. Besides which, I cannot respect the views of someone like you who is a Post Trib believer. Anyone who would believe that nonsense is not able to understand the words of the Bible. You are deceiving yourself.

Aaron

Yes, I have demonstrated how homosexuality is not genetic by pointing out the obvious fact that it is no different than any other form of sexual immorality like bestiality and incest which are clearly not genetic. The twin studies that I referenced earlier does more than refute the notion of homosexuality being genetic, it devastates it. Also, I've pointed out the clear and unmistakable reality of how God designed the human body. It is YOU who screams and shouts that it's genetic because that is how YOU want it to be and you are so desperate to believe that that you will deny and ignore these plain realities. The deception is yours my friend.

Devin

I repeat, you have not demonstrated anything. You have merely voiced your opinion. Your 'twin studies' is absolutely false but you are not bright enuf to see that. I have yet to 'scream' or 'shout' anything here. In fact, I have been fairly low-key. But it is VERY interesting to see that you perceive me as 'screaming and shouting'. You sure do get worked up about this subject. I wonder why. For that matter, I wonder why Michael Brown is so burned up by same-sex marriage and gays in general. It is very interesting and a little suspicious that you guys are so obsessed with gays. I'll leave it at that. I have much more important things to think about such as arctic temps and five feet of snow!

Aaron

I repeat, I have demonstrated it. Just because YOU say that I haven't demonstrated anything does not make it so. And I repeat, the twin studies are an absolutely legitimate argument as I pointed out earlier in our discussion. The reason you reject it is because it totally disproves your presupposition that homosexuality is genetic.

I get worked up over this subject?! Look at the pot calling the kettle black. I know you try to downplay how you rant and scream a bunch of words thinking that that will strengthen your argument but that is definitely how you come across. Between you, Michael Brown and me no one is obsessed about homosexuality accept you. You've revealed that time and time again with your weak and desperate arguments to try to condone and justify this kind of immoral and perverted behavior in spite of the logical and common sense arguments to the contrary. Anyways, hopefully we can finally end this discussion without anymore baseless and deceptive attempts from you to try to candy and sugar coat this sin.

Devin

No, Aaron, your twin theory is false. Identical twins are not fully identical because the twins are exposed to different amounts of androgens while in the womb. You are just conning yourself. I have neither ranted nor screamed. You, on the other hand, have certainly screamed your faulty perceptions, your excuses and misguided opinions. I think there is something seriously wrong with you that you interpret my words as 'screaming'. I have already told you that I do not understand why God has a negative approach to gays. His real problem is with promiscuity but that is a behavior true of straights as well as gays. It really has nothing to do with your common, ordinary gay. As I have previously said, I do not have the time or interest in your bogus arguments. But I'd really like to know what is wrong with you that you are so obsessed with gays.

Aaron

Yes, Devin, the twin STUDY (not theory) makes perfect sense. If they are identical then they have the same DNA which would lead them to both be homosexual. Even if they aren't fully identical, there wouldn't be such a low percentage of both of them being homosexual if it really is genetic and androgen doesn't refute any of that so it doesn't even make sense to bring that up.

Yes, you have definitely ranted and raved your misguided and false assumptions. As far as God declaring homosexuality sin, He is God and you are not so I'll take His word over yours. And the Bible clearly condemns homosexuality in general, not just promiscuity and you know it. These aren't bogus arguments and I'm not obsessed with homosexuality (as I already correctly pointed out it is you who falls into that category). It's all about what the plain language of the Bible actually says. You simply refuse to accept it because you love this sin and seek to justify it at all costs.

Devin

No, Aaron, the twin 'study' is not reasonable. Twins are not actually identical due to hormonal influences while in the womb. I have not ranted or raved but it is very telling that you seem to hear that tone of voice. It says a lot about you. Yes, Aaron, you are obsessed with gay just as Michael Brown is. I do not know why. If you really believed in the plain reading of the Word then you would be Pre Trib. No, I do not love sin but I love gay Christians who are so badly hurt by fundamentalists like you. As I have previously said, I am not interested in talking to you any longer as you are mostly mean-spirited and not too bright.

Aaron

The twin study is an absolutely valid argument for the simple reason that they come from the same DNA. If it is genetic, as you claim then they would almost always both be homosexual but as I pointed out earlier, only 11% to 14% are both homosexual which your point about hormones does not refute at all.

Again, it's obvious from this discussion that YOU are the one who rants and who is obsessed regardless of your denial. The Bible plainly condemns homosexuality per se and you are being dishonest by denying something so clear as that. "Christian homosexual" is an oxymoron according to the Bible just like "Incestuous Christian" or a "Christian thief." Makes no sense. And as far as not being too bright goes, you're the one who comes up with simple and illogical arguments as I've demonstrated time and time again. Hopefully you will be done with me this time and put an end to your baseless drivel.

Devin

Aaron, you are really just an obnoxious fundamentalist as is Michael Brown. Now go away.

Aaron

Maybe I am a fundamentalist (not the obnoxious kind as you obnoxiously accuse me of being) but adhering to the fundamentals of the Christian faith is not a bad thing. It definitely beats being an antinomian who disregards the plain, straightforward meaning of the moral law of God in favor of the deceptive philosophy and distorted reasoning of the world.

Devin

Aaron, why are you wasting my time? You have not come up with a single argument that could convince anyone that gays cannot be Christians, which was the whole point of Brown's mistaken book. Brown is SO wrong. But then he is also an egotistical buffoon. Is that the kinda person you wish to defend?

Aaron

I'm not wasting your time. You're wasting your own time by desperately trying to condone and justify sin and by attacking and black-balling people like me and Brown who acknowledge the fact God DOES condemn homosexuality. My argument that you can't be an unrepentant homosexual and a Christian at the same time IS valid but it's really not my argument; it's the argument of God based on what the Scriptures clearly and unmistakably say. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with the God that you say you believe in no matter how much you deny it.

Devin

Yes, Aaron, you are wasting my time. It is just too bad that you and Michael Brown cannot understand the difference between being born gay and gay sex. I know exactly what the Bible has to say about being gay and yet God knows for a fact that many of his children have been BORN gay. That is for God to sort out, not you or Brown. For instance, I am mightily indwelt by the Holy Spirit. How do you explain that? God has not rejected me cos I am gay. I have Christian friends and they have no problem with my orientation. So what's your problem?

Do you ever listen to the egotistical blowhard Michael Brown? He seems to think of himself as THE most important Christian on earth. His book does not really show his high opinion of himself that he displays on his radio show Line of Fire. Apparently every word he utters is IMPORTANT. He pretends to be humble but he just oozes ego. Do you approve of that? Do you think God approves of that?

Aaron

No again, Devin. YOU are wasting YOUR own time. Stop blaming me for something that is your own fault. And no matter how much you insinuate that homosexuality is genetic, it doesn't change the obvious fact that it is not and it IS a choice. Also, God has made it abundantly clear that He did NOT create anyone to be a homosexual. Have some integrity for crying out loud and stop spreading lies about Him.

I really don't care that you have so-called "Christian" friends who affirm your behavior and sinful orientation and I don't care that you think that Brown is egotistical. Maybe he is and if that's the case then he needs to repent of that, but that's neither here nor there when it comes to the wickedness that homosexuality is. What I care about is what I should care about and that is what God has declared in the Scriptures and as has already been pointed out time and time and time and time again, the Scriptures declare that homosexuality IS a sin that needs to be repented of. You can say that you have the Holy Spirit in you until you're blue in the face but if you are consciously and willfully continuing in and rationalizing the sin in your life (which you obviously are) then according to 1 John 2:3-4 your claim is meaningless.

Devin

As I have said time and time again, Aaron, there is a DIFFERENCE between being BORN gay and gay sex. What is the matter with you that you cannot make that distinction? No one makes a CHOICE to be gay. God knows that even if you do not. I am not 'spreading lies' about God. But I must say that YOUR God is something of a monster. That is very unfortunate. The God I know emphasizes grace and forgiveness and acceptance. But then people who CHOOSE to be fundamentalists have something seriously wrong with them. They have cold, dry hearts which harden against everyone who is not exactly like them. You should be examining your own heart. You should be begging for forgiveness for your whole attitude.

Aaron

As I have demonstrated to you time and time and time and time again, people are clearly NOT born homosexual and homosexuality is sin whether you're doing it physically or doing it in your heart. I have made the proper distinction. That is just a classic case of you ignoring my valid points in order to bolster your argument. YES, people do make the choice to be homosexual just like they do with adultery, incest, bestiality, stealing, alcoholism, etc, etc.

Despite your flagrant lie that you are not lying about God, you in fact are and you have just called Him a monster?! How dare you?! It's a shame that your love of this sin would drive you to label Him that way. God accepts and forgives people IF they REPENT. You're insinuating that people don't have to repent of the sin of homosexuality which is totally dishonest of you. You need to beg for forgiveness of not only your homosexuality, but also of your hatred of God for condemning that sin. He makes the rules, you don't.

Devin

Aaron, I said YOUR God is a monster. YOUR God. Not the genuine, authentic God who exists in time and space. YOU have made a monster out of God. Fundamentalists have made a monster out of God. You and they WANT God to be this monstrous entity whom you can worship and use as an excuse for YOUR hatred. You really have not heard a word I have said here. You misconstrue even the simplest statement I make. WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU?

You have NO arguments and no proof. People are born gay. Most folks know by the time they are 5 yrs. old that they are gay although they do not know the word yet or what it means. How do you think that you can make ANY comment on gay people when you know nothing about it? Your arguments are meaningless. I have not lied about God. BUT YOU have lied about gays. You need to beg forgiveness for your hatred of gay people.

You are willfully ignorant. And so is Michael Brown. The only people who read his book, for the most part, were people who hate gays and wanted excuses to justify their hatred. You really need to repent of your hatred, as should Brown. Actually, Brown does not so much hate gays as fear us. He makes that clear on his radio show when he squawks about 'moral insanity' and 'revolution'. That being the case I have to wonder if YOU fear gays? Do you fear a world in which gays have equal rights? There must be something behind your hatred. What is it? Unacknowledged fear?

Aaron

I know you said my God but my God is the God of Scripture who has told us plainly that homosexuality IS sin and therefore it IS a choice. And yes, the God of Scripture IS the God who exists in time and space. Therefore, it is YOU who has called the only God a monster and it's because you love your sin and that is pathetic and sad.

Sorry Devin but it is clearly YOU who has no proof and no substantial argument worth taking into consideration. People are NOT born homosexual anymore than they are born alcoholics or thieves or racists. I have not lied about homosexuality but you have completely lied about God and you are willfully ignoring it. You're only attacking me because I won't let you get away with your bogus and ridiculous arguments to try to rationalize something unnatural and perverted.

Lastly, I refuse to be manipulated by your baseless and dishonest accusations of hatred. You just need to give up that desperate and futile emotional fallacy. It doesn't work with me. As I've said before, just because I have the common sense to acknowledge that God made us male and female for a blatantly obvious reason (that you willfully CHOOSE to ignore) does not make me hateful or even fearful for that matter. It's amazing the depths that you will stoop to to avoid acknowledging this sin for what it is and to demonize and berate anyone who has the integrity to denounce it as sin. Your levels of desperation are staggering!

Devin

Aaron, I've really had enuf of you and your hate-filled opinions. Yes, that is all you have offered here. YOUR opinions and the simplistic way you CHOOSE to misinterpret the Bible. I have tried to break thru your hardened heart but I see that that is impossible. I could not care less what you persist in thinking about the gay community. But I was hoping that you could at least calm down and let the Holy Spirit move in your soul a little, But I see that the Lord cannot get thru to you. You should consider repenting of your hated and hard heart. God may not like gay sex but he loves gays just as he loves hard hearted fundamentalists. Repent, Aaron. You have jabbered on and on about things you do not even remotely understand. May the Lord open your eyes and your heart!

Aaron

I've had enough of your twisted and deceptive logic that tries to normalize wicked behavior that Jesus died to set you and others free from. I'm also sick of your phony and shallow emotionally charged allegations of hatred. Common sense does not equal hatred. Also, agreeing with what the Scriptures emphatically say(not my opinions as you falsely assert) does not equal hatred either. How ironic that you accuse me of hatred when in reality it is YOU who hates me because I won't let you justify something that God plainly condemns. You can say that it is my interpretation all you want to. It doesn't change the fact that the plain language of the Bible clearly calls homosexuality a sin.

I've never said nor implied that God doesn't love homosexuals. I believe wholeheartedly that He does, however He does hate homosexuality and commands homosexuals to repent of it, not just outwardly but inwardly as well. I don't need to repent of anything that I've said to you because it was all based on what God says. You need to repent of homosexuality as well as your hatred and disdain for anyone who would have the confidence in God and His word to tell you the truth about your sin. Hopefully you will acknowledge and turn from your sin toward Jesus Christ before it's too late.

Devin

Aaron, I don't hate you. I feel sorry for you. You are just so simple-minded. But I think it's very interesting that you perceive me as hating you. Maybe you know deep down how wrong you are. My logic is neither 'twisted' nor 'deceptive'. I have never said here (or anywhere) that God likes gay sex. But he loves gays. Too bad you cannot see the difference between gay sex and being born gay. If a 5 yr. old kid knows instinctively that he is gay then you cannot get away with saying gay is a 'choice'.

If anyone here is wicked, it's you. Your opinions are subjective. Your interpretation of the Bible is subjective. No one can claim to be objective but God Himself. So I cannot take anything you say seriously. You need to repent of your subjective opinions which are based on hatred. Even Michael Brown does not hate gays the way that you do. The language of the bible is not 'plain', it is quite complicated. The only thing that's simple about it is the simple-mindedness of the fundamentalist. That's you.

Aaron

No need to feel sorry for me Devin and no, I absolutely don't feel that I am wrong at all because I stand with what God says on this issue and you obviously do not. You sure do sound like you hate me with all the name calling and cheap accusations of "hatred," "ignorance" "being wicked" and "bigotry" that you have leveled against me simply because I accept what God says and how nature works. And I said earlier that I believe God loves homosexuals. He just doesn't love homosexuality and He condemns the act as well as the desire. He also, based on His word, doesn't accept the phony excuse of "oh, I'm just born this way." God doesn't make people homosexual anymore than He makes people racist.

The Bible is complicated regarding homosexuality?!?! What don't you understand about "man shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman?" What don't you understand about the fact that the only legitimate form of marriage that Jesus and the Bible affirms is between a man and a woman? Your assertion that the Bible is unclear about marriage and sex is pure nonsense. You are being intellectually dishonest by denying the clear and plain condemnations of homosexuality that are throughout the Bible and you calling me simple minded on this unmistakable biblical issue is weak and lame. Do yourself a favor and give it up already!

William Fisher

"YES, people do make the choice to be homosexual just like they do with adultery, incest, bestiality, stealing, alcoholism, etc, etc."

That really is an ill-considered and downright silly statement. If you can't immediately see why, you should consider this statement: "YES, people do make the choice to be heterosexual just like they do with adultery, incest, bestiality, stealing, alcoholism, etc, etc." There! Now you see exactly what's wrong with it, don't you?

People choose what they DO, and that includes their sexual BEHAVIOUR. They do not choose their sexual ORIENTATION. People do not decide to be heterosexual, i.e. to be sexually attracted to people of the other sex. They just are. In the same way, other people do not decide to be homosexual, i.e. to be sexually attracted to people of the same sex. They just are. Despite any number of theories, some at least superficially plausible, others simply stupid, we still do not know the causes of sexual orientation. What we do know is that it is not a choice.

True, it has not been proved people are born homosexual. Nor has it been proved that people are born heterosexual. But dogmatic assertions like "people are clearly NOT born homosexual" should be avoided. It is dishonest to present mere opinions as though they were established facts.

Aaron

"That really is an ill-considered and downright silly statement. If you can't immediately see why, you should consider this statement: 'YES, people do make the choice to be heterosexual just like they do with adultery, incest, bestiality, stealing, alcoholism, etc, etc.' There! Now you see exactly what's wrong with it, don't you?"

When you take into consideration the obvious indicative nature and design of the human body you can immediately understand how asinine and ridiculous the above quotation is. That statement is nothing but a smoke screen to avoid dealing with the common sense reality that the anatomy of the human body makes it glaringly evident that heterosexuality is normal and homosexuality is completely unnatural.

"They do not choose their sexual ORIENTATION...What we do know is that it is not a choice."

And you accuse me of giving mere opinions and stating them as facts?!?! Look, an ORIENTATION is defined as "a person's feelings, interests, and beliefs." That doesn't even come close to qualifying as something that is immutable or unchanging. People's feelings, interests and beliefs can change and shift like the wind so it is absolute nonsense to suggest that people cannot change their sexual orientation. Therefore, to say that people are NOT born homosexual makes perfect sense. The way we are created makes it abundantly clear that God created us with a heterosexual intent in mind and yes, He does allow us the ability to choose to distort and reject His clear and unmistakable intent for marriage and sex.

"It is dishonest to present mere opinions as though they were established facts."

I'm not talking about opinions. I'm talking about having the common sense to acknowledge that God made us male and female for a blatantly obvious reason and it's clear that He doesn't create anyone to be homosexual since it is clearly not compatible with the way He designed the nature and structure of our bodies. We're talking about something so basic and visibly understandable that it is downright dishonest to deny.

William Fisher

Aaron, I have no intention of getting side-tracked by your argument about "the obvious indicative nature and design of the human body" and about homosexuality being "completely unnatural", since it is nothing but a smokescreen in this context: even if it were valid, it does not affect the fact that people do not choose their sexual orientation. Those who keep insisting that they do are simply exhibiting their own silliness and ignorance.

Your argument about whether sexual orientation is "immutable or unchanging" is another red herring. Changeability is no proof of choice. The colour of my hair was very different at 14 from what I was when I was 10, and very different again by the time I was 25 (and no, I don't mean that I dyed it; I have never done that). So does that show that my hair colour was a choice, and that I could change it at will? No, of course it doesn't. People's feelings, interests and beliefs can change, but sexual orientation is not a mere interest or belief, nor is it a just a transient feeling. People's sexual orientation, whether heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual, is ongoing and does not usually change, even if they want it to, and even if they are psychologically/spiritually bullied by religious abusers into trying to change it. There are convincing cases of sexual orientation spontaneously changing - in both directions - but they are unusual, especially in males, and there is no known means of deliberately engineering change of this kind. The history of the so-called ex-gay movement is eloquent testimony to the futility of attempts to do so.

Can one actually PROVE that people with a homosexual orientation do not choose it? Well, not directly, no. I know for a definite fact that I didn't choose mine, and I could happily and confidently swear to that on oath in court if I knew that this coming night was going to be my last, but I have no means of proving it to anyone else. For all that I know to the contrary, I could be the only person in the whole world who didn't and the only person who is telling the truth; the countless other people who can testify that they didn't choose theirs either could all be lying, and neither I nor anyone else could prove that they weren't. Not in the minutest degree likely, but there are clearly anti-gay nutcases who would grasp frantically at the wildest improbability rather than face the obvious truth.

There is, however, extremely strong indirect evidence on this point, and some of it is provided by the self-same "ex-gay" movement that I deplore. There are people who have wasted years and even decades of their lives on this cruel wild-goose chase. Some have also wasted a lot of money on it, often money that they could ill afford. There are those who have repeated the same ex-gay program several times, hoping that perseverance will eventually make it work, and others who have in increasing desperation tried one program after another. Boiler-room scams wouldn't exist if people who wanted to make a quick buck could do it simply by choosing to pull money out of thin air. Similarly, "ex-gay" ministries wouldn't exist if a homosexual orientation were a choice: people who didn't want homosexual orientation wouldn't have chosen one in the first place; or if they had somehow chosen it in error and then realised that it wasn't what they really wanted after all, they would simply discard it and replace it with a heterosexual one. The "ex-gay" hoax could never have got off the ground, because there would have been no takers. Even apart from other considerations showing up the absurdity of the notion that a homosexual orientation is a choice, that one alone should, for all practical purposes, be conclusive to any person of normal intelligence and intellectual honesty.

Aaron

Oh no you don't. You can't discard the natural make up of the human body simply because it doesn't line up with your way of thinking. Just because you say that it's a "side-track" issue(with no justification for it) doesn't make it so. It absolutely is relevant to the discussion and the only reason you attempt to vainly dismiss it is because it's detrimental to your argument. The fact that the concept of normal, natural human sexuality would even have to be spelled out for you based on how the male and female body parts were designed for each other reveals how low the intelligence level has gotten in this discussion. It's unfortunate that this level of redundancy needs to be emphasized and even more ridiculous when someone attempts to illegitimately brush it off.

If we were to accept your logic as valid then we would have to say that some people are just born racist or that they don't choose to be racist. And so what about your hair color changing. You want to talk about a red-herring? Feelings, interests and beliefs are not the same as someone's body parts and they are governed by a person's emotions and desires and often times their will, not by someones genes or inherited traits. You're comparing apples to oranges. Despite your arguments about ex-gay ministries and so forth, this does not prove at all that there are no cases where someone chose to quit being homosexual. Maybe the percentages are very low but there nonetheless are people who have been homosexual and are no more. This does not mean that they can never feel a desire or temptation to be with someone of the same-sex, though it would be arrogant and foolish to think that there are none or could not be anyone like that. But even if they are still tempted at times and feel the desire to be with someone of the same-sex that doesn't mean that they are still homosexual anymore than the person who used to be an alcoholic, who still feels the temptation to get drunk once in awhile, is still an alcoholic and will always be one. Same thing with the person who used to be addicted to pornography who still feels the urge to gaze at it from time to time but resists the urge to do so. The bottom line is none of your reasoning proves that people can't choose their orientations, whatever they may be.

Aaron

The concept of normal, natural human sexuality is in no way, shape or form a side or periphery issue. It is the basis and foundation of where this whole discussion starts. And I don't care if you believe in God or not. The design and nature of our bodies is a plain indication of how heterosexuality is the natural way for all of us starting out. Nevertheless, we CAN choose to accept and live in this natural reality or we CAN choose to deviate from it. We have a choice as to which sexual orientation we will feed or nurture.

If your example of hair changing color has any shred of validity (which it doesn't as I already demonstrated earlier) than my point on racism is well taken. Far from being an inept one as you erroneously assert, it is quite comparable to homosexual orientation. Even though homosexual orientation isn't a "belief" or an "attitude" it is nevertheless a feeling just like a racial prejudiced attitude. One may feel strong tendencies toward racism just like one may feel strong homosexual tendencies. But we would think it's absolutely absurd and ludicrous (at least I hope you would think so) if someone tried to rationalize their bent toward being racist by saying that they were just born a racist or that they didn't choose to be racist but that they just are. It's no different with sexual orientation. Just because we have a tendency toward some attitude and/or some feeling that we've had as far back as we can remember doesn't mean that it isn't something that we had a choice to embrace in the first place nor does it mean that we can't break free from or change those attitudes and/or feelings.

The comparison to alcoholism makes perfect sense as well. As has already been established by the fact that the make up and design of our human bodies shows that heterosexuality is the way sex was designed and intended to be, it is nonsensical and laughable to compare heterosexuality to something that our bodies were not designed for and never meant to be subjected to like alcoholism. However, just like our bodies are clearly not meant for alcoholism for obvious reasons, so our bodies are not meant for homosexuality for obvious reasons. They are comparable for the simple fact that they have plain indications that reveal to us that our bodies were meant for neither. Alcoholism is not meant for our bodies because of the devastating effects that it has on our bodies and homosexuality is not meant for our bodies because of the way our bodies are created and, in many cases, because of the devastating effects that it can have as well. The pornography addiction comparison is also a valid comparison because, like homosexuality, it can be considered an orientation as well.

Devin

Aaron, you still have not dealt with the fact that many 5 yr. olds KNOW that they are gay in the sense that they know they are different from others and later realize that it was cos they were gay. Do you really think that a 5 yr. old is making a CHOICE to be different? Aaron, your opinions are totally unpersuasive.

Aaron

Devin, YOUR opinions don't prove one bit that homosexuality is not a choice. I'm sure there are plenty of homosexuals that didn't have any attractions to people of the same sex at that age and didn't start until they were in puberty. That example has no power at all because if we accept that logic then someone could make the same argument regarding being racist. Someone who is a racist could say that they knew they were a racist at the age of five and therefore it wasn't a choice for them and therefore they can't change their feelings which is nonsense and it's no different with homosexuality.

William Fisher

Someone who is a racist could say that they knew they were a racist at the age of five and therefore it wasn't a choice for them and therefore they can't change their feelings which is nonsense and it's no different with heterosexuality. Aaron, do you think that a heterosexual orientation is a choice? I wonder why you haven't yet told us.

Aaron

Lol! You're still using that childish repeat flip-flop tactic of argumentation?! I hope you realize it only reveals that you know you've encountered a valid refutation of your argument and you're so desperate to win the argument at all costs. Look, I've already pointed out that yes, people can and do choose heterosexuality which is clearly a natural instinct based on the way were created and how our bodies are designed and people do have the power and will to choose to deviate from that natural reality and tend toward homosexuality. It's all about what we feed our minds with. It's really not that hard to comprehend.

William Fisher

On the contrary, Aaron, far from it revealing that I know I've encountered a valid refutation of my argument, it reveals precisely the opposite: that I know that I've encountered yet another of your pieces of special pleading. What you call my "childish repeat flip-flop tactic of argumentation" is, in fact, an effective way of exposing your use of this favourite debating trick of yours, and of doing it in such a childishly simple way that its fallaciousness is clear enough even for any moderately intelligent child to perceive.

And now you're telling me in the same sentence both that people can and do choose heterosexuality and that it's a natural instinct, which is manifestly nonsense. Yes, heterosexuality is a natural instinct, but the thing about natural instincts is that they are NOT chosen. Heterosexual ACTS are a choice, of course, in the sense that people don't HAVE to do them, but the heterosexual orientation which leads to them is not a choice, nor is it caused by anything that people feed their minds with: it's just a natural instinct.

In the same way, a small minority of people have a homosexual orientation, and that too is not a choice, but a natural instinct. I have already outlined some of the evidence which decisively shows that a homosexual orientation is not a choice. You have simply ignored it, haven't you?

Aaron

Special pleading?! Give me a break. If that's the case I could say the exact same thing about your flip-flop tactic. You're only calling it fallacious and childishly simple because it does expose your argument for the sham that it is. If someone can argue that they don't choose to be homosexual than someone can make the argument that no one chooses to be racist because they BOTH fall under the category of an orientation. You want to turn it around and say "well, when did you choose to be heterosexual?" which is just as ridiculous and irrelevant as someone who is a racist to retort "well, when did you choose to be nonracist?" Deny it all you want to but there is an obvious parallel between the two logics and the same principal would apply. In the end, both reasonings are skewed.

Yes, I am saying that heterosexuality is a natural instinct and yes, we can choose to follow that natural instinct or we can choose to deviate to something that is clearly NOT a natural instinct based on the way our bodies were created and made up. And BTW, this plain and evident reality of heterosexuality being natural and homosexuality unnatural based on the way our bodies are structured is something that YOU have ignored and it is becoming increasingly apparent that you ignore it because it stifles your whole argument about an orientation not being a choice. Again I say, it's really not that difficult to understand. It's just good old fashioned common sense.

William Fisher

Aaron, my "flip-flop" tactic, as you call it, is what shows up your special pleading for what it is, so I'm not surprised that you're irritated by it. I'd hardly expect you to welcome having one of your favourite tricks of argumentation, which you're clearly using to deceive yourself as much as anyone, exposed as crooked.

And I see that you're using another crooked debating trick: playing Humpty Dumpty with the meaning of words. A bit earlier you were trying to tell us that pornography addiction was "like homosexuality", and could be "considered an orientation as well". Not content with that ridiculous assertion, you're now saying that being homosexual and being racist "BOTH fall under the category of an orientation"! If you want to call racism an orientation, you're free to do it, although I've never before heard anyone use the word in that peculiar way, but you don't thereby show that racism is an orientation in the same sense as homosexuality is and that therefore, if one is chosen, the other must be too. Anyone can play games of that kind with words, but by doing it they prove absolutely nothing, except perhaps the utter feebleness of their case. Neither a heterosexual orientation nor a homosexual orientation is in the same category as racism, and neither is a choice. You can't prove otherwise by misusing the term "orientation".

Your final rant, which you have now repeated for the umpteenth time, about the "unnaturalness" of homosexuality, is neither here nor there. Even if everything that you say about that were correct, it would not prove that a homosexual orientation is a choice. It definitely isn't. I have already shown that, while there is no direct way of proving this (any more than there is a direct way of proving that a heterosexual orientation is not a choice), the belief that it is a choice is blatantly contradicted by the known facts of experience. But it seems that you prefer to ignore the ample evidence on this point, despite its extreme cogency, and to dodge all attempts to get you to confront it. Unless and until you are prepared to do this, I shan't attempt any further discussion of the matter with you, as it would be a waste of time.

Aaron

If I'm irritated, I'm only irritated by the fact that you completely ignore the fact that your argument could just as easily be subjected to that kind of weak and lame tactic.

I didn't misuse the term "orientation." Not even in the slightest bit. As I pointed out earlier, an orientation is defined as "feelings, interests or beliefs." Racism is a feeling just like homosexuality is and therefore YES, it is correctly categorized as an orientation. It's that simple. No amount of rambling and babbling can refute this basic logic. There is no Humpty Dumpty trick as you erroneously assert. I think it just goes to show how your "logic" has been properly deconstructed but of course, you don't want to swallow your pride and admit it so you ramble on and on and on with frivolous retorts and phrases like "you're just playing games with words" and "that's just a ridiculous assertion" and "homosexuality just can't possibly be a choice." None of which had any support or validity, just your presuppositions.

Look, just because you dismiss and disregard the concept of natural and normal human sexuality as irrelevant doesn't make it so and you only dismiss it because it nullifies your argument about homosexuality not being a choice which you have absolutely not demonstrated. It most certainly is a choice based on the very simple and uncomplicated understanding of how our bodies work and are designed. Go ahead and deny and denounce nature. Nature carries more weight than what you think the known facts of experience are. I think it's plain to see that you're the one playing dip, dodge and duck on this very basic issue. It's blatantly obvious that our bodies were created in such a way to show us that heterosexuality is a natural instinct and homosexuality clearly is not. If you want to go ahead and beat your head against that brick wall have fun, but you'll never be able to logically refute it and will come across as very foolish and idiotic if you insist on doing so.

Devin

C'mon Aaron, don't be ridiculous. The choice to be racist has nothing to do with one's innate sexual orientation. And it has nothing to do with a 5 yr. old's awareness of being different. (It's the same for transgendered people many of whom are swear that they've been born into the wrong body.) But you just cannot deal with that fact. Because then you have to explain how and why God created gay children and children who are transgendered just as children are born intersexed. They have never made a choice. There is nothing you can say to deny that.

Aaron

No Devin, there is nothing you can say to deny or refute that homosexuality is not genetic and is therefore a choice. And I'm not being ridiculous. The comparison to someone being racist is totally legit. Your logic (if it can be called that) is no different then someone who is racist saying that that is just the way they were born and that they don't choose to be that way.

You know, it's funny that you mention transgendered people. These people were not born in the wrong body! They truly were born the way they really are and cannot choose to be different no matter how much they say that they are the opposite sex or how many surgeries they undergo. This reveals just how twisted and backwards your logic is; you think people are born homosexual and can't change but people who are truly born a certain way can change their sex. That kind of nonsense that you put forth is just mind-numbing.

Devin

No, Aaron, gay is not a choice. No matter how much you want to deny it, You are, I assume, straight. Therefore you have no business making claims about gays. Gay is not part of your experience. Transgender people who are born in the wrong body are not making a choice, either. Aaron, I'm sorry but you are so pathetic and your beliefs are pathetic that I see no reason to continue to talk with you. You are just so blind. I'm very sorry to see how very ignorant you are.

Aaron

Yes I am straight but that's neither here nor there when it comes to homosexuality being a choice which it clearly is. There are people who have left their homosexuality behind and that right there is proof enough along with all the other ways that I have demonstrated throughout this discussion. You assuming that "transgender" folks are born in the wrong body is what is truly pathetic and is a slap in the face to the God you say you believe in. God clearly doesn't make anyone to be a homosexual but He sure does make people male or female. How can you reason that people can't change their sexual orientation but they can change their sex which is obviously something that they truly are born with?!?! That is complete nonsense that doesn't deserve any shred of consideration. Hopefully you will mean it this time and will be done with the discussion so that the mind-numbing logic that you keep rambling and babbling on with will cease.

Devin

Aaron, being gay is clearly NOT a choice. No one stops being gay. They may refrain from any sexual activity but their same-sex attraction NEVER goes away. People who claim to be ex-gay are just white-knuckling it, denying the truth about themselves. Most of the 'ex-gay' 'ministries' have dried up and gone away cos they do not work. Transgendered folk are born into the wrong body. But their brain knows what sex they were meant to be. But I do not expect you to be able to understand that. God has nothing to do with it. It's biology. Just like the cases of people born intersexed. Are you trying to blame that condition on God. It sure sounds as if you were. As I said before, Aaron, you are just pathetic!

Aaron

YES, homosexuality IS a choice and YES, there are people who have repented of their homosexuality despite your arrogant and ignorant assumption otherwise. Who are you to judge that someone else can't change or that they can't never experience that attraction again? You have no legitimate proof or authority to make such a claim and you never will. And so what if they do feel a temptation to commit homosexuality again but don't give in to it anymore! It's no different then the person who used to be an alcoholic who may, for the rest of his life, feel the urge to get drunk but doesn't succumb to the temptation. It doesn't mean that he is still an alcoholic just because he feels that temptation and it's no different with the person who has repented of their homosexual sin.

Again, your reasoning regarding transgendered people is asinine and bogus. They were BORN the sex that they are. This nonsense about their brain telling them they are a different sex and that that means that they shouldn't have been born the sex that they are is one of the weakest and most lame duck forms of logic that I've ever heard before. Yes, God does have something to do with it and He clearly intended them to be the sex that they are. The very unfortunate but rare and sparse examples of people being born intersexed are a result of the fact that we live in an imperfect world that is a result of the Fall of man that started with Adam and Eve. But that in no way proves that people who are born a certain sex should screw up the bodies that God gave them by vainly attempting to switch sexes; something that anyone with an ounce of common sense can tell is something that God never intended for anyone to try to do.

William Fisher

Aaron's arguments about homosexuality not being "natural" - whatever that may mean - have no bearing whatever on the question of choice: with regard to THAT question they are, EVEN IF they were valid, a complete red herring. People do not choose their sexual orientation, whether that orientation be a heterosexual or a homosexual one.

People usually become fully aware of their sexuality and its meaning in adolescence. If a homosexual orientation were a choice, would people make that choice at the very age when the desire to be just like everyone else, and especially just like one's peers, and the dread of being different are at their height? Only someone with zero knowledge of human nature could seriously think so.

The very existence of the "ex-gay" movement, cruel delusion as it is, is further proof that a homosexual orientation is not chosen. It professes to offer "help" to people with an "unwanted" homosexual orientation. Who the hell chooses something that they don't want? And if anyone for some reason mistakenly thought that a homosexual orientation was what they wanted and then, having chosen it, found that it didn't come up to their expectations, they'd ditch it and replace it with a heterosexual one instead. They wouldn't, as some have been conned into doing, waste precious years or even sometimes decades of their lives, and frequently also money that they can ill afford, on the "ex-gay" wild-goose chase. The "ex-gay" movement wouldn't even exist.

These considerations should be conclusive to anyone who is capable of rational thought, who is not completely detached from real life, and who has any intellectual honesty. To say that a homosexual orientation is a choice can no longer reasonably be called just an error. It is a blatant falsehood.

Devin

I agree with you totally, William. But Aaron is incapable of seeing your logic. For that matter, Michael Brown is incapable of seeing your logic. I'm not sure what their problem is but they certainly are threatened by gays or else they would not respond the way they do.

Aaron

"Aaron's arguments about homosexuality not being "natural" - whatever that may mean - have no bearing whatever on the question of choice: with regard to THAT question they are, EVEN IF they were valid, a complete red herring."

Far from being a "red-herring," the point about homosexuality being unnatural is the basis for this whole discussion. I know you insist on dismissing the clear and obvious reality of this based on the nature and anatomy of the human body but it's a reality that your "logic" has no escape from. Based on this actuality, anyone with a shred of acumen can understand and acknowledge the truth that heterosexuality is natural and homosexuality is unnatural. However, we as human beings still have what is called a "will" which gives us the ability to choose what is natural or to choose what is unnatural and this reality is not complicated or hard to grasp despite your futile efforts to make it vague and ambiguous.

So what about the ex-gay movement and the many people who didn't give up their homosexuality. That still doesn't negate or refute those who HAVE repented of and left their homosexuality behind. You have no basis or authority to judge that all of those people who did make the choice to leave homosexuality are lying or being delusional so this whole tired and worn out point of the "ex-gay" movement does nothing for your argument. As far as people choosing something that they don't want, that's no argument at all. Many people who are addicted to smoking try to quit but their bodies are so accustomed to it that many continue to smoke even though they strongly want to quit. The same could be said for homosexuality.

All of this is to say and demonstrate that the insinuation that an orientation to anything, including homosexuality, is immutable, unchanging or not a choice is simply untenable and anyone who can think logically and without any bias can understand and grasp this. Saying that people can't change their sexual orientation is as absurd and ridiculous as someone saying they can't change their racist orientation. It's nothing but a cop-out to avoid taking responsibility for your own choices.

William Fisher

Aaron, please stop trying to muddy the waters. It's not clever and it's not intellectually honest. I'm NOT arguing here about whether or not homosexuality is "natural", as you know full well. We've had that argument, and what I'm talking about now is something quite else, viz. the assertion that a homosexual orientation is something that people choose. The assertion is false: they don't. I have explained why it is patently obvious that they don't, and my reasoning is completely sound and fully consistent with the facts of experience. Your insistence to the contrary is not consistent with anything, except your own evidence-free preconceptions.

Let's take an actual concrete case, to make it clear to even the meanest intelligence. This case is probably not well known on your side of the Atlantic, but it was the subject of more than one television documentary here in the UK, and it took place only a few miles away from where I lived at the time (about 20 years ago).

One summer, while his parents were away on holiday, Simon, the 26-year-old son of a fundamentalist minister, took an over-dose of tranquillizers and drove to a lay-by in the next county (Norfolk in East Anglia) where he gassed himself with carbon monoxide, to the sound of the hymn "To God be the Glory" playing on his car stereo. His parents, when they received the inevitable call from the police, were quite unable to think of any reason why he should have done this - until, that is, they returned home and found the letter which he had left for them. The letter revealed that Simon was gay, something that they had never for one moment suspected, and that he had decided to kill himself because every attempt to change his sexual orientation - which he had been taught, and which he himself believed, was "sinful" - had completely failed. When they found his diaries, these revealed a great deal more of which they had been unaware: Simon had spent years not only praying to God day after day to change his unwanted homosexual attractions to heterosexual ones, but going from "treatment" to "treatment" in his incessant struggle to "cure" his homosexual orientation. He had tried twelve different forms of "therapy", including psychotherapists, exorcists and several "ex-gay" ministries, going from one to the next in ever-increasing desperation, and even going back and giving ones that had already failed a second try. As he put it in his suicide letter, "I wish ever so much I could stay and live a healthy, normal [sic] life."

So what do you say to this, Aaron? That Simon had made all those efforts, had spent all those years of his life starting in his teens, and in some instances had spent hard-earned money, to fight against something that he had himself chosen, and that the reason why all his attempts failed, resulting eventually in his suicide, was that, to quote incredibly fatuous words which you have used in the past, "he loved his sin"? I make no judgment on your own intellectual capacity, Aaron, but I hope that you won't insult the intelligence of the rest of us.

I would add that your analogy between homosexuality and smoking is a thoroughly inept one. As both a gay man and an ex-smoker, I know whereof I speak. To be addicted to smoking (or anything else) you have to DO something: you have to start smoking, taking drugs, gambling or whatever. To have a homosexual orientation, just as with a heterosexual orientation, you don't have to do anything at all. Most people, whatever their sexual orientation, know what their sexual attractions are well before, and often years before, they have any sexual experience. I realised that I was gay (although I tried to bury the fact by ignoring it) nearly seven years before I first had sex with anyone. The analogy with smoking falls to pieces; it is too ridiculous to be taken seriously for a moment.

I can't say categorically that NO-ONE has EVER succeeded in changing their sexual orientation through an "ex-gay" programme. So what? By the same token, I can't say categorically that NO-ONE has EVER been cured of a serious organic illness by any of the numerous forms of charlatanism on offer. Proving comprehensive negatives like that is not possible. But the conclusion to which the history of the now four-decades-old "ex-gay" movement points is clear and unmistakable: the evidence for the efficacy of "sexual orientation change" programmes is, at best, as poor as the evidence for the efficacy of Christian Science healing or "psychic surgery", if not even poorer. Talk of people "repenting" of their homosexuality and "leaving it behind" is misleading. Anyone can "repent" of their heterosexuality and "leave it behind", i.e. never have heterosexual sex again, no matter how difficult that may be, but that won't change their heterosexual orientation. People won't change their homosexual orientation by similar "repentance" either.

In fine, all of this is to say and demonstrate that the insinuation that a homosexual orientation is a choice is simply untenable. It is utterly divorced from reality, and anyone who can think logically and without any bias can understand and grasp this.

I'm sorry, Aaron, all that you have done is to tell us for the nth time something that you believe, or wish to believe, and to do so in a dogmatic tone to make it sound like an ascertained fact, even though it not only is devoid of the slightest factual basis, but is plainly contradicted by all the evidence of experience. I don't know whether you imagine that you'll convert it into an actual fact by dint of sheer repetition; you certainly won't.

"If people can repent and leave homosexuality behind..."

The evidence indicates quite clearly that they can't, except in the same sense that one could misleadingly speak of people "repenting" and "leaving heterosexuality behind", i.e. giving up having sex. But no-one on here, that I have noticed, has tried to claim that people don't choose to engage in this or that sexual behaviour, or that they can't choose to stop having sex. It's their sexual orientation that they don't choose (as Simon obviously didn't choose his), and which they can't change at will (although Simon wasted what should have been the best years of his life trying every conceivable way to change his).

As for appealing to God in attempted justification of your groundless and untrue assertions, inane analogies and obscurantist attitudes, I really think that's a bit steep. Only a week or so ago a rabbi, speaking on the BBC radio "Thought for the Day", observed that there are times when it's better NOT to invoke God's name. How right she was! This is surely an excellent example of such a time.

As a rule, I never offer advice unless I have been asked for it, but I shall break the rule on this occasion. I advise you, Aaron, to cease your practice of coming back again and again to reiterate the same patent falsehood. Even if you manage thereby to convince yourself of it, you will convince others only of your credulity and of your indifference to truth.

Aaron

No, all you've done is merely tried to avoid something so basic and indisputably visible from nature for the nth time and you only prove your desperation by doing so. You think that you can come up with a bunch of clever analogies and catchy phrases that sound intellectual and sophisticated to attempt to write it off but it clearly is just a fašade. Sorry but common sense will win every time. And so what if a Rabbi said it's better to not appeal to God in a discussion. Big deal! Like that statement has any power or substantial point to make a case on simply because a Rabbi said it. Look, it's quite clear that God set up the sexually compatible parts of the human body they way they are for a reason so appealing to Him makes absolutely perfect sense.

"The evidence indicates quite clearly that they can't..."

What evidence? That's a rhetorical question btw because there is none. You again can't say anything to refute the fact that there are people who have left their homosexuality behind just like people who have left smoking, alcoholism and even racial prejudices behind. Your retort about someone repenting of heterosexuality makes as much sense as saying that someone repented of their non-racist attitude or repented of not being an alcoholic. Who in their right mind would use such pointless logic? Heterosexuality is the only kind of sexuality that makes sense based on how we are created. Deny and denounce this reality all you want to and go ahead and make false and ridiculous assertions about me simply because I won't let you get away with unjustifiably dismissing it. Like I said before, you're beating your head senselessly against a brick wall and you come across as very foolish and silly for doing so to anyone who has the mind and basic intelligence to see nature and the world as they actually are.

William Fisher

Thank you, Aaron. I think that you've now made it abundantly clear that your sole concerns in this matter are to try to make a putrid attitude to gay people and their sexuality appear righteous and to defend peddling the discredited "ex-gay" hoax. You've also made it clear that for those purposes any absurd analogies and fallacious arguments will do, and the "facts" are whatever you want them to be, and that you are quite impervious either to reason or to reality. It would therefore be a waste of time to prolong this discussion; it would indeed, as you have rightly said, be beating my head senselessly against a brick wall; so I'll now bring it to a close. I wish you a happy Easter.

P.S. I would just add, for the benefit of anyone reading this who does not know much about the "ex-gay" movement and who may feel tempted to dabble in it, that the most devastating evidence against it comes from those who not only were once its most fervent believers and exponents but actually ran it, including one of its founders (Michael Bussee) and the man who directed the biggest and oldest-established "ex-gay" ministry for nearly 22 years (John Smid), and who formerly gave to the world precisely the kind of self-delusional testimony to how they had "repented" of their homosexuality, "left it behind", "overcome" it, made "the choice to give it up" etc. that Aaron now refers to, and who have now publicly apologized for the harm that they did by deceiving others with their misleading claims.

Aaron

I'm impervious to reason or reality?!?! When you consider how you deny and try to explain away something that is so basic and evident from the complimentary parts of the male/female structure, it boggles the mind how you could make such a hypocritical accusation as that.

William, the fact that I have the sense to acknowledge the way God set up the nature of our bodies as a clear and unmistakable indication that heterosexuality is His plan for marriage and sex and that any other form is a blatant distortion of it does not mean that I am self-righteous. It also doesn't even come close to a fallacious and absurd analogy. As I've said before, it's just pure common sense that allows us to understand that homosexuality is perverted and unnatural and nothing you have presented negates or refutes this. I don't have to "try to make homosexuality putrid." It just is and I'm simply acknowledging that.

As far as people who say they had repented and went back to being homosexual, of course there have been people who went back to it just like people who had given up being alcoholic eventually fall back into alcoholism or drugs or smoking or whatever. This however does not prove that no one ever truly repents or leaves it behind. Just because a lot of people fall back into those desires and behaviors does not nullify or discredit the ones that DO truly repent and leave it behind and that's the bottom line.

Devin

Aaron, you CAN'T 'repent' of something you were born with just as all gays are BORN gay. Just cos you want so badly to believe that gay is a choice does not make it true. But I do hope that you REPENT of your animus for gays.

Aaron

Devin, people are NOT born homosexual. That is pure idiocy. You are the one who wants so badly to believe that homosexuality is not a choice so that you don't have to take responsibility for it before God. I'm merely agreeing with God on the issue which does not equate to having hatred or animosity toward homosexuals. Like I said, you're beating a dead horse. Give it up already. Ok?

Devin

Idiocy? Idiocy? No Aaron, the only idiocy here belongs to you. You are so blind that it is appalling. Your HATRED of all things gay has made you blind. You really have a lotta nerve to think that only you and God know the 'truth'. Your misinterpretation of the bible is just plain wrong-headed. I know you do not believe that you hate gays but the fact is that every word out of your mouth absolutely drips hatred. You really need to REPENT of your hard-heartedness. I know that God does not appreciate you 'talking' for Him. Repent your presumption and hard heart, Aaron!

Aaron

Yes Devin, it is foolish and irrational to blame your homosexual desires on genetics. You are the one who is so blinded by your sinful desire that you falsely berate others. These vain and desperate tactics you use to argue with are senseless. Your reasoning, if it can be called that, ends up being proven faulty and shallow so you then appeal to emotion. Then, when you have nothing to present in refutation, you attack me and falsely accuse me of hatred. Ad hominem attacks, emotional and genetic fallacies and straw-man arguments are all you've got.

You really are a desperate man to continue to say that I have misinterpreted the Bible on this issue. I have not and you know it full well. It says what it says and I've already quoted the explicit and unmistakable language that the Bible uses to condemn homosexuality enough times in this discussion that proves your statement totally false and asinine. You're just flat out being dishonest by denying what the Bible so clearly says and it only proves that you simply REFUSE to accept what God has declared about this sin and that's the bottom line and that's sad.

Devin

Aaron, you are SO wrong. Your shrill replies are what is 'senseless'. I have no 'tactics'. I am merely trying to get you to admit that cos you are not gay you have no business announcing what gays think and feel. I have said here a few times that I can see that God has a problem with gay sex but I do not believe that he has problems with gays or gay Christians. Your reasoning, if it can be called that, is faulty and shallow and asinine. Your hatred of gays is obvious. Why can't you just admit that you hate gays? What words can I use that will open your eyes to the fact that there is a difference between gay sex and gays? But then, since the obtuse Michael Brown cannot see that difference, I guess it is too much to expect you to be able to. Repent of your hatred, Aaron.

Aaron

Devin, you keep using the same superficial and ridiculous circular reasoning by bringing up old arguments that I already answered long ago. I know there is a difference between homosexual sex and homosexual desire but I've pointed out time and time again that God condemns the act as well as the desire. And you basically repeating almost verbatim what I said about your senseless logic and directing it toward what I have said just proves my point about your desperation and hopelessness more and more. Again, nothing but ad hominem attacks, emotional fallacies and straw-man arguments. It's really very pitiful.

Devin

Aaron, I did not say that there is a difference between gay sex and gay desire, I said there was a difference between gay sex and gay people. It's just too bad that you cannot see the difference. Your shrill replies are getting more and more tiresome. I am neither desperate nor hopeless. But you are indeed hopeless in your 'reasoning'. I just have to wonder where your hatred of gays comes from. But I realize that as a plastic saint you will never acknowledge your hate. Repent, Aaron.

Aaron

It's not a case of it being the difference between an act and the way a person is born. That has been properly and adequately deconstructed time and time again. The reason I referenced the difference between homosexual sex and homosexual desire is because that is the bottom line issue we're dealing with. I can see just fine thank you very much. Hopefully you will begin to see your desperate and hopeless plight (evidenced by your constant, repetitive and phony arguments of "hatred" and "bigotry") for what it is and stop your irrational and incessant ranting.

William Fisher

Devin, Aaron is undoubtedly right about one thing: you are bashing your head against a brick wall. Yes, you know perfectly well that you didn't choose to have a homosexual orientation. I know equally well that I didn't choose to have one either. (That, of course, is simply a plain statement of fact. Aaron's contention that it is an excuse, forsooth, so that I "don't have to take responsibility for it before God" is every bit as fatuous as it would be if he said that I was claiming that I didn't choose to be right-handed because I didn't want to have to take responsibility for it before God.) The evidence that people in general do not have a homosexual orientation by choice (just as people in general do not have a heterosexual orientation by choice) is so overwhelming that it should be conclusive for any intelligent, rational and intellectually honest person. That fact is quite unaffected by the different question of what exactly it is that determines people's sexual orientation - a question to which, despite the wide range of plausible and implausible theories on offer, no-one as yet knows the answer.

But it is useless to try to convince Aaron that his belief is false by confronting him with evidence and reason, because his delusion has nothing whatever to do with those considerations. It is useless to point out that he obviously knows next to nothing about the subject, because he clearly does not regard ignorance - on this subject, at any rate - as being any handicap. His belief is a totally evidence-free fantasy to which he is determined to cling, and the immovable rock of that fantasy is absolutely impregnable against either evidence, reason or knowledge, as he has by now demonstrated more than sufficiently. The dramatist Peppino De Filippo wrote a comedy in 1942 entitled "Non e vero....ma ci credo", which ten years later was made into a very successful film. I don't imagine that the film is often shown in cinemas nowadays; I haven't seen it myself; but its famous title remains well-known throughout Italy today, having become almost a modern proverb. It means "It's not true...but I believe it." That fully sums up the situation, I think.

Aaron

Sure, just throw the reality of what science and nature makes so emphatically clear from human biology out the window and then hide behind lame and weak arguments of "oh, this is what my experience tells me" and "well, you're just ignorant, Aaron." Face it. Your arguments could just as easily be used by racists, alcoholics and people involved in incest.

BTW, that Italian quote you referenced sure does sum up the logic that the two of you have put on display.

Devin

Yes, William, I realize that I have been on an impossible quest as I attempt to break thru Aaron's obnoxious and totally lame arguments. He and his ilk are delusional but I had hoped that by appealing to his religious faith he would loosen his grip on hate-filled fantasy about gays. I had hoped that the Holy Spirit would open his eyes but I now admit that he is willfully blind. And proud of that fact. A waste of my time.

Aaron

And to anyone else who may read this discussion who professes to be a believer in Jesus but is struggling with homosexuality in their hearts, for your sake, I urge you to not be swayed by Devin's (or William's for that matter) fallacious and weak arguments about homosexuality being genetic and unchanging. And please don't be swayed by his total disregard for what Scripture plainly says on this subject. Disregard his attacks on the word of God which are nothing but an attempt to justify perversion. God is not ambiguous about this sin and He has made it very clear what His will is regarding marriage and sex and anyone who knows what the Bible actually says and has any common sense about nature can grasp. Devin simply has an agenda to normalize and promote sick desires and behaviors and will attack anyone who would put him in his proper place on this issue.

William Fisher

Yes, Devin, I think that sometimes one simply has to take to heart what the Victorian writer Frank Podmore wrote in another context about people who persist in delusional beliefs:

"To most men who have given themselves over to a false belief there comes a time when the ears are deaf and the eyes are closed and the heart is hardened.... With such men...argument is no longer even possible. Decipiantur [Let them be deceived]."

William Fisher

To anyone else who may be following this discussion, no matter what your beliefs may be about the authority of the biblical writers and whether we are obliged many centuries later to share all their opinions, about the morality of homosexual behaviour, or about whether or not homosexuality is "natural" (a word which to which so many different senses have been attached that an argument on the point could go on till the end of the world and still get nowhere), I urge you not to pay the slightest attention to Aaron's (or to anyone else's) unsubstantiated and untrue assertion that a homosexual orientation is a choice.

Homosexual ACTS are, of course, a choice, just as heterosexual acts are, but a homosexual ORIENTATION, like a heterosexual orientation, is not a choice. That, unlike the other points of contention that I have mentioned above, is not a matter of belief but one of plain fact. Those who persist in asserting the contrary are merely airing their ignorance and showing their inability to conform their opinions to objective truth. As I expressed it before, "Non e vero....ma ci credo."

If you are someone who, even in these enlightened times, is struggling to come to terms with a homosexual orientation - and you will certainly know, if anyone does, that you did not choose it - I would urge you not to be bamboozled into wasting part of your life on the futile and demoralizing "ex-gay" quest. It will not change your homosexual orientation to a heterosexual one. As with any other form of hocus-pocus, no-one can absolutely and conclusively prove that it NEVER works - the impossibility of proving a universal negative is proverbial - but the only realistic expectation is disappointment. That reality is unaffected by arguments and theories about whether people are born gay, or born straight for that matter - and no theory about the cause(s) of either homosexuality or heterosexuality has yet been proved anyway. To anyone who doubts the uselessness of "ex-gay" programs, I would highly recommend two books:

REV. SYLVIA PENNINGTON, Ex-Gays? There are None!: What it Means to be a New Creature in Christ, 1989
WAYNE BESEN, Anything but Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth, 2003.

Sylvia's book is out of print, but it is still obtainable second-hand, and it is well worth reading. If by any chance the blanket statement in her title admits of any exceptions, then they are decidedly that - exceptions, as thin on the ground and as difficult to locate as lottery winners.

Wayne's book is certainly not cheap, but for anyone who is deterred by reading it from squandering precious and irrecoverable years of their lives on the long and heart-breaking "ex-gay" wild-goose chase, the money will have been well spent: the book will, figuratively speaking, have paid for itself many times over. Although it is now nearly twelve years old, it is as valuable and as topical today as when it first came out.

So how has the "ex-gay" movement developed since then? Well, the same old, same old.... The only significant change is that most of those "ex-gay" leaders and promoters who, at the time that Wayne was writing, were still insisting to him that THEY (unlike so many of their predecessors over the preceding decades who had renounced the "ex-gay" message as self-deception) were the genuine article, that THEY had genuinely "overcome" their unwanted homosexuality and "left it behind", have now in their turn come out and repudiated the "ex-gay" myth. It is both interesting and instructive, as well as salutary to anyone injudicious enough to contemplate dabbling in this cruel hoax, to read what people like John Paulk, Alan Chambers and John Smid said to Wayne back then, and to compare and contrast it with what they are saying now.

They have now admitted that neither they nor any of the clients of their ministries ever genuinely changed their sexual orientation, no matter how much they strove and prayed, no matter for how many years they abstained from gay sex, no matter what heterosexual "lifestyles" they had forced themselves into; and they have apologized for the harm that they have done to others by leading them up the garden path with phony messages which they kept preaching because they WANTED them to be true and thought that they OUGHT to be true, even though they weren't - once again, "Non e vero....ma ci credo."

As Sylvia Pennington - a Christian heterosexual minister who had herself been at one time a fervent believer in and practitioner of "ex-gay" ministry until she saw the light - said of those who obstinately cling to the "ex-gay" delusion:

"To those who try to convince me of these things, I tell them to see me in five, ten or twenty years and I'll try to put the broken pieces of their humanity together, as I've done now for many years."

Unfortunately, Sylvia is no longer with us; she went well before her time. "Give her eternal rest, O Lord, and may perpetual light shine on her for ever. May she rest in peace. Amen."

Aaron

Again, to those who profess to know and love Christ but are confused on this issue, the above ramblings and drivel are a prime example of what Colossians 2:8 and 1 Timothy 6:20 warn us about, namely the philosophies and empty deception of this world and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called knowledge. And contrary to William's ridiculous attempts to make a very plain and straightforward word like "natural" seem vague and ambiguous, nature and common sense make it evident to all that heterosexuality is natural and homosexuality obviously is not. He(and Devin) would have you believe that this is not a choice and that if you are struggling with homosexual desires you should just cave in like they have but as a follower of Christ we are to deny ungodliness and worldly desires. Contrary to what they would have you believe, there are people who have repented of and overcome their homosexual desires. Even though there may be many people who have failed in the public eye in this regard, it doesn't mean that that is the case with everyone. Don't believe the lies.

Devin

As a follower of Christ I am also gay. I do not know why that is, but God does. I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit and have a firm and fast relationship and dependence upon the Lord Jesus. The only ramblings and drivel I see here have come directly from Aaron. My question would have to be, why is Aaron so concerned with gay truth? Why does he feel so compelled to lie about gay people? It cannot only be his ignorance, can it? Does he denigrate gays cos he thinks it is fun? I have tried as much as possible here to understand just what Aaron's reasons are for attacking gays. But I have no answers. He is just wrong, wrong, wrong. I had hoped that he would discuss Michael Brown's book here but whenever I bring up Brown he ignores it. So what is his reason for remaining here, repeating the same lame arguments? For someone who hates gays he certainly is obsessed with the subject. I wonder why that is?

William Fisher

Just a few comments and considerations to supplement those which I have already made.

Those who are fascinated by human oddities may be interested to know that there is one case on record of a man who DID try to choose - yes, actually to CHOOSE - a homosexual orientation. (There are probably others, but they must be vanishingly rare.) Although he had always been heterosexual, for various rather complicated reasons he had somehow got the idea into his head that his life would be more comfortable and fulfilling if he were homosexual. He therefore refused just to "cave in" and accept the heterosexual desires that he was "struggling with", and instead made the CHOICE to "overcome" his heterosexual orientation and replace it with a homosexual one. He socialized in gay male circles, searching for a man, not just to have sex with, but to whom he could experience real sexual attraction. He even presented himself at a gender clinic asking if they could do the job for him. Guess what? His attempts issued in abject failure. His sexual desires, attractions, fantasies and dreams resolutely remained as heterosexual as they had always been. (See MICHAEL W. ROSS, "Ego-Dystonic Heterosexuality: A Case Study", in The Treatment of Homosexuals with Mental Health Disorders, 1988)

Well, that outcome was pretty easy to guess, wasn't it? - except perhaps to those whose lack of even the most rudimentary understanding of human sexual attraction is matched only by their almost preternatural ability to tell themselves absurdities and even to believe them - "Non e vero....ma ci credo."

If you are struggling with homosexual desires - desires which you obviously don't want, since otherwise you wouldn't be struggling with them, but which you have nonetheless chosen, as one usually does choose things that one doesn't want - then no, you don't HAVE to cave in and accept them, any more than people with heterosexual desires HAVE to cave in and accept them - although they almost invariably do. (Dr Ross's paper seems to imply that even the heterosexual man whose bizarre and exceptional case I described in my first paragraph above had to cave in eventually and accept reality.) You are perfectly at liberty to fritter away not just years, not just decades, but the whole of the rest of your life on pining and fretting because your natural sexual orientation isn't that of the majority. You are at liberty to try one useless "ex-gay" or "conversion therapy" program after another, which will mean wasting not just time which you will never get back but probably also money which you can ill afford. More than half a century ago, the English sociologist Michael Schofield wrote:

"It should not be supposed that most homosexuals continue to combat their homosexual desires for the rest of their lives. Like all human beings, they share that valuable ability to adjust themselves to the situations in which they find themselves. And so, in the course of time, most of them realize that if they are to enjoy their share of health and happiness, they must learn to live with themselves, and this means that they must also learn to live on terms with their homosexual condition [sic]."

Although his use of language now seems very dated, Schofield's point is nonetheless well expressed, and the advice which he was, by implication, giving is unexceptionable. But you don't HAVE to take it. You don't HAVE to use that valuable ability to which Schofield refers. Adults, at any rate, must have the freedom to make their own decisions, and that must perforce include the freedom to make ill-advised ones which they will sooner or later come bitterly to regret. As the late English scientist Sir Oliver Lodge, writing over 100 years ago, rightly said, "The essence of manhood is to be free - for better for worse, free."

Aaron

I wonder how Devin can be so deluded to call himself a follower of Jesus and then turn around and promote perverted and sinful behaviors that Jesus died to set others free from. I wonder how he has the nerve to falsely accuse and berate others who have the integrity to uphold what the Scriptures actually say on this issue and then say that he is filled with the Holy Spirit. It's obvious that he loves his sin and refuses to accept the wickedness of it that he is either blind to his own hypocrisy or he just willfully ignores it. Based on his laughable and ridiculous review of Michael Brown's book, his obstinate denial of what the Scriptures explicitly say on this subject and his incessant and irrational comments full of straw-man arguments, emotional fallacies and stubborn false accusations of me that are utterly void of reason and merit, I think it's clear that he is just plain ignoring it. And he says that I'm obsessed?! He is the epitome of hypocrisy.

Devin

I notice that Aaron was unable to answer any of my questions.

Aaron

It's not that I'm "unable" to answer the questions. I've explained over and over and over again how you're accusations of "hatred" and "bigotry" have no validity. You have nothing legitimate to say in refutation so you attack with emotionally charged rhetoric and you seem to think that if you rant it and shout it loud enough and repeat it over and over and over again it will make you seem like you have won the argument but it's a false hope. It really is pathetic.

Devin

Talk about pathetic, Aaron. Your responses and claims to be a 'good Christian' are what are pathetic. I have taken it for granted that you are indeed Christian but you are lost in the fundamentalist version of Christianity. But now I wonder how someone has hate-filled and ludicrous can actually be a Christian. Perhaps you are just a very immature Christian? By the way Aaron, I have not ranted nor have I shouted here. But the fact that that is the way you hear me points out just how confused you really are. I don't think it is emotionally charged to comment on your hard-heartedness. And that is surely not the behavior of a true Believer. I think that Michael Brown is something of a buffoon but at least he is not hard-hearted like you. Besides, I thought the purpose of these comments was to discuss Brown's silly book not to turn it into a demeaning of gays in general and gay Christians in particular as you have done. If you wanna discuss the book, fine. Otherwise, take a hike.

Aaron

Yes Devin, you have indeed ranted and shouted silliness and irrationality all over this discussion and yes, you have used phony and dishonest emotional attacks. I've already pointed out time after time how acknowledging what God says about the sin of homosexuality is not "hateful," "heart-hearted" or whatever. It simply is a case of you not being able to refute what the Scriptures say and so you use emotion and personal attacks to try to win the debate and it's all just a hypocritical manipulative ploy. And so what about the book. Michael Brown obviously agrees with what the Bible teaches on this subject which is really very obvious and straightforward in the Bible. You just can't handle it when someone exposes your "logic" as silly nonsense and judging from the amount of negative clicks that your review has received, it's good to know that most people see it for the pretense and bias that it is.

William Fisher

I think that the issue can be summed up as follows. Can you be gay and a Christian? Yes, of course you can. How do we know that? We know it because there are plenty of gay Christians. I'm reminded of Mark Twain's reply when he was asked whether he believed in infant baptism: "Do I BELIEVE in it? Hell, I've SEEN it!" Can you be gay and be the kind of Christian that Michael Brown is, and that he thinks that everyone else ought to be? No, at least not with logical consistency. Does that matter? No, of course it doesn't matter in the least, since there's absolutely no need to be that kind of Christian anyway. So there's nothing for anyone to lose any sleep over in that regard.

Aaron

The question needs to go one step further. The more specific question that should be asked is "Can you be an unrepentant homosexual and a Christian?" To find the answer to that question you have to look to the Bible because that is where Christianity originates, with the word of God. The Bible gives us the clear answer and the answer is a resounding "No." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) That pretty much clears things up. Can we all go home now?

William Fisher

"Can you be an unrepentant homosexual and a Christian?"

Well now, the answer to that question depends on what exactly the questioner is talking about. If he is talking about simply BEING homosexual, i.e. being someone whose sexual attractions are to persons of the same sex, then, since people do not choose their sexual orientation, there is nothing to repent of, so the question is, for all practical purposes, as meaningless as the question "Can you be an unrepentant heterosexual and a Christian?" would be, and there is nothing further to discuss. Cadit quaestio.

If the questioner means "Can you be a homosexual who is unrepentantly in a gay sexual relationship and is also a Christian?", we then need to ask what is meant in this context by a Christian. If the questioner means a BIBLICAL FUNDAMENTALIST Christian, then you certainly are likely to have a problem here with reconciling those two aspects of your life. Not necessarily an insoluble problem, however. Biblical fundamentalists are, in general, experts at inventing loopholes which will allow them to slide out of obeying biblical commands. To take one example, the biblical teaching against lending money at interest is pretty clear.

Indeed, Psalm 15 - which I can remember being told, when I was a choirboy, is often referred to as "the Christian gentleman's psalm" - specifies that one of the conditions for a man to be worthy to enter the Lord's tabernacle and to dwell on his holy hill is that he "does not put out his money at interest" (Psalm 15:5). For centuries the Church repeatedly and firmly reiterated the teaching that taking interest was a sin. Dante, in his Divina Commedia, put people who did this together with "practising" homosexuals in the same circle of hell (Inferno, Canti XV - XVII). Yet nowadays no Christians (except possibly members of very obscure fringe sects) are told that they must close any savings accounts and cancel any pension schemes that accumulate interest. On the contrary, some evangelical fundamentalists, including some well-known evangelists, have grown rich by unrepentantly raking in interest. Similarly, the teaching in the New Testament against divorce and remarriage could scarcely be clearer, yet many fundamentalists, including clergy, seem to have found a way of copping out of that one without too much difficulty. Finding ways of re-interpreting the few biblical passages that refer to homosexual behaviour is no more difficult, and some have done it.

But if, on the other hand, you do not hold to the superstitious belief that the Bible is a collection of infallible documents, and that everything in them has been written effectively to divine dictation, and if you believe that we in this 21st century are not necessarily obliged to share all the opinions of the biblical writers, since on some matters we have grown more enlightened and humane, then being an unrepentant, non-celibate, homosexual Christian is no more problematical than being an unrepentant, non-celibate, heterosexual Christian.

Can you be gay and a Christian? Yes, you bet!

Aaron

You're trying to complicate a very uncomplicated issue. Like I said before, the Scriptures are where we find out what a true Christian is and according to them a true Christian will not continue in unrepentant sin and try to make excuses for it or even worse, say that it isn't a sin. So again, the real question is "can you be an unrepentant homosexual and a Christian?" and the answer is an emphatic, "No." But this obviously applies to all sins, not just homosexuality. Enough said.

With regard to receiving interest, the Bible is not referring to receiving interest on investments or savings which is made plain in Jesus' teachings in the parables of the minas and talents in Matthew 25 and Luke 19. What the Bible does condemn is the exacting of interest in the case of someone lending their own personal money to someone that is in a serious need and therefore, taking advantage of that person in their circumstances. Hopefully that helps to clear up your misconception on that issue and you'll stop with these diversionary tactics from the main issue that we've been discussing which, btw needs no further discussion. Thank you.

William Fisher

Thank you. You've made my point for me very well indeed. I couldn't have made it better myself. Although for centuries the Church insisted that the clear biblical prohibition of lending money at interest meant exactly what it said, and that all Christians were bound to obey it to the letter under pain of serious sin, it was eventually "re-interpreted" to suit those who wanted to enrich themselves by lending money at interest and didn't like being told that this was a sin. But of course, such re-interpretation is legitimate only when it suits your own convenience; when you want other biblical prohibitions - ones that don't inconvenience you - to be imposed on other people, you can't have them resorting to it too, can you?

Since neither being gay nor being in a gay relationship is a sin, neither of those things needs to be repented of. I agree that it is thoroughly misguided to make excuses for them, but that is simply because no excuses are needed. To the question "Can you be an unrepentant [sic] homosexual and a Christian?" the answer is an emphatic "Yes, just as you can be an `unrepentant' heterosexual and a Christian."

Now trying to complicate gay people's lives with pernicious nonsense about their sexuality being "wrong", "sinful", "unnatural", "broken" etc.; trying to make them believe that it is morally wrong for them to form sexual relationships congruent with their sexual orientation; trying to con them into wasting years of their lives on the "ex-gay" fraud - THOSE things are undoubtedly sins, and very ugly and abhorrent ones at that. They DO need to be repented of, and it is a matter for great rejoicing that so many of those who have previously made a full-time occupation out of them are now publicly repenting and are working to undo, in so far as they can, the damage that they have previously done by their behaviour. But fortunately, in any case, the number of gay people willing to have their lives and relationships sabotaged by anti-gay claptrap grows ever smaller. Thank God for that.

Aaron

If you had even bothered to read the passages that I referred to in Matthew 25 and Luke 19 you would have seen that there was no need to continue in the discussion on that front. No "re-interpretation" is being done here so don't worry. I know you thought it was a silver bullet argument but just do yourself a favor and let it go.

Oi vey! Yes, homosexuality is a sin and it is plainly revealed to us by not only the Scriptures but by nature itself. Seriously! We really don't need to continue to beat a dead horse. And leveling fallacious and frivolous accusations of "complicating people's lives" only further distorts and blurs the issue. It's really not necessary and it's getting tired really quick.

William Fisher

I had no need to read again the passages that you mentioned. I had read them many, many times before, as well as heard them read out both in church and at school. Ah well, I wonder how it was that for so many centuries the Church either never noticed those passages, or else never realized that, if a character in one of Jesus's parables is related as having done or suggested something, that must be Jesus's way telling us that it is permissible. What a pity that you weren't around to point that out!

I will continue to exhort all gay people to resist the abusive anti-gay agenda in every possible way and to warn them against allowing years of their lives to be stolen by the cruel "ex-gay" fraud.

Aaron

Well, I seriously doubt that everyone throughout Biblical history and Christianity believed that receiving interest from the bank was a sin based on the passages in Matthew 25 and Luke 19. If that was the case then Jesus wouldn't have used the idea of banks payment of interest on a deposit as a good thing. Something tells me that there have been plenty of people over the centuries who have had enough sense to make this intellectual deductive reasoning.

And I will continue to oppose these genetic and intellectual fallacies that are pretentiously deployed in an effort to normalize something perverted and unnatural and expose these excuses for the frauds that they are. I also will definitely continue to expose the emotional and manipulative allegations of "hatred," "bigotry," and "ignorance" for the sham that they are. It's all part of the homosexual agenda trying to force everyone to accept their lifestyle as legitimate and berate and demean anyone who has the common sense and mental faculties to not be duped by their "logic."

Devin

There is no such thing as a 'gay lifestyle'. There are only gay lives.

Aaron

Homosexuality has to do with desires and behaviors so yes, it is a lifestyle. Haven't we been over this enough already? Seriously.

William Fisher

Aaron playing Humpty Dumpty with the meaning of words - again.

lifestyle: a person's or group's way of living - Chambers English Dictionary

Homosexuality is not a lifestyle; it is a sexual orientation, just as heterosexuality is. One's lifestyle is, of course, likely to be in accordance with one's sexual orientation, but it is not inevitably so: it is possible for someone deliberately to adopt a lifestyle which contradicts their sexual orientation. Homosexual people sometimes do this as the result of improper social or religious pressure to conform to the heterosexual "norm", and some even hope that doing so will eventually change their sexual orientation to a heterosexual one, which it won't. Fortunately, ever fewer homosexual people are falling into this error, which not only doesn't solve their "problem" - which shouldn't be a problem anyway - but complicates it and unjustly deprives their other-sex partners of the genuinely heterosexual relationships that they should have.

Note that I have spoken above of A lifestyle, not of THE lifestyle. THE homosexual lifestyle does not exist, any more than THE heterosexual lifestyle does. While there are, no doubt certain lifestyles, both homosexual and heterosexual, which are far more common than others, there are as many possible homosexual lifestyles to choose from as there are heterosexual ones.

Since nothing whatever is to be gained by continued misuse of the term "lifestyle", I would dare to hope that we shall see no more of it on here. Seriously.

Devin

Thank you for your comments, William. I really appreciate your presence here. You make a lot of good points. I have just about had it with Aaron. His hard heart towards people he does not even know is just so disheartening from someone who claims to be a Christian.

Aaron

No William, you and Devin are playing "humpty dumpty" with your skewed and laughable logic and reasoning and distortion of common and uncomplicated terms. Yes, homosexuality is an orientation but as I've already correctly pointed out time after time in this discussion, an orientation is defined as "feelings, beliefs and interests" and this does not have anything to do with something immutable or unchanging. Therefore, it is a lifestyle that is determined by ones desires(feelings and interests) and behaviors and to continue to harp and camp on it being an orientation does nothing for you argument. Nothing you have presented refutes this common sense reality. The matter has been settled no matter how much you and Devin continue to try to manipulate this issue by confusing and convoluting it.

William Fisher

I'm sorry, Aaron; this foolishness is getting you nowhere. "Skewed and laughable logic and reasoning"? "Distortion of common and uncomplicated terms"? A very apt description of your own arguments. The word "orientation" can be and has been used in a number of different senses, as reference to any good dictionary will show, but the long established use of the term "SEXUAL orientation" is to refer to the direction of a person's sexual attractions, i.e. whether those attractions are to people of the other sex, of the same sex, of both sexes (or, I suppose, in rare cases to no-one of either sex). A person's sexual attractions are quite likely to result in some kind of sexual lifestyle - it would, indeed, be surprising if it were otherwise - but they are not themselves a lifestyle. Anyone of even moderate intelligence can see that. As I have only recently pointed out, it is possible for people with a homosexual orientation to force themselves into a heterosexual lifestyle of one kind or another, and some have attempted to do that very thing. It is also possible for people with a heterosexual orientation to force themselves into a homosexual lifestyle, although it is most unlikely that they would actually do so; I have already briefly described in a previous post the one recorded case which I know of in which a heterosexual man attempted to do that.

Whether a sexual lifestyle is "immutable or unchanging" and whether a sexual orientation is "immutable or unchanging" are, therefore, two quite different questions. The answer to the first is obviously "no": anyone can change their lifestyle, even though, for various reasons, some may find it easier than others to do this. That does not tell us the answer to the second question, which is not so simple. Whether or not sexual orientation is, in principle, "immutable or unchanging", it is clear that in practice most people's sexual orientation does not change - not even if they want it to. There are some convincing cases of people's sexual orientation changing of its own accord from homosexual to heterosexual and vice versa, but they are the exception, not the rule. There is no known means of deliberately bringing about a change of that kind, and anyone who has studied the history of the "ex-gay" movement will know that, while it is impossible to prove that no such attempt has ever succeeded, the chances of success are, at a generous estimate, no better than the chances of winning the lottery.

Playing Humpty Dumpty with the meanings of the terms "sexual orientation" and "lifestyle" for the purpose of conflating them in an attempt to nullify reality is both absurd and foolish. Anyone who is prepared to resort to such an intellectually (and transparently) dishonest tactic really ought to pause and ask himself why he feels the need to do so. If he does, he may very well come to the realization that the reason is that a phony position can be defended only with phony arguments.

William Fisher

Thank you, Devin. The problem is, of course, as you have realised, that a hateful attitude of that kind cannot be undermined by truth or reason, since it is not based on truth or reason in the first place. One Sunday morning a few years ago, as I came out of the church where I was then organist, I encountered a former work colleague and fellow musician who lived a few doors away from the church. After the usual exchange of greetings and courtesies, he said, "You know, I sometimes envy people like you - people who have faith." He then added, "But religion has also done an enormous amount of harm over the centuries, you know." I am reminded of that when I read Aaron's religious anti-gay rants.

Aaron

If it's foolishness, it's only because my appeal to true logic and common sense falls on yours and Devin's deaf ears. Yes, laughable and skewed adequately describes yours and Devin's "logic" and you have distorted common and unmistakable terms. You think if you ramble on and on and try to make your "point" sound sophisticated and intricate then you will sound like you have bolstered your argument. However, your "sophisticated and intricate" response does nothing but confound something very simple. Saying things that really just sound like "well, orientation can mean this, that and the other" and "anyone who knows anything about lifestyles knows that a lifestyle is not really a lifestyle and blah, blah, blah" does nothing to refute the fact that when you really break it down, homosexuality IS nothing more than "feelings, interests, desires and beliefs" which is what an orientation is and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that desires can change and can vary at times in peoples lives. Therefore, since desires can change and are clearly not immutable, homosexuality is not genetic, immutable or unchanging. And the connection between desires and lifestyle is not hard to grasp or see either since one's desires often lead to the behaviors that make up a lifestyle so yes, homosexuality is a lifestyle that is a result of the desires that come from someone's heart, not their genes.

Call it "humpty dumpty" or whatever all you want to. You're the one that has tried to undermine truth and reason by ignoring and vainly attempting to dodge the plain reality of how God clearly designed our bodies for marriage and sex and how it is explicitly evident that homosexual desire goes totally against that design and purpose and it's just as immoral as incest and bestiality. And yes, I just compared homosexuality to bestiality and it's a legitimate comparison because both are obviously unnatural desires and are blatant perversions of marriage and sex the way God intended. I know you don't like it but it doesn't matter if you don't like it. You still have to deal with it nonetheless.

Now, can we please stop the madness of this debate now that the real bottom line issue has once again been brought to the forefront to make it plain that anymore irrational replies, baseless accusations of "hatred" and senseless begging of the question from you and Devin are pointless? Puhleeeez!

Devin

Actually, Aaron, my main reason for being here is cos I wanted to discuss the absurdities of Michael Brown's book. I thought that was what we were s'posed to do here. Discuss the book. But you are just so brimming with hatred for gays that you have missed the reason for this conversation.

Aaron

Actually Devin, we have been discussing things that the book addresses all along so what's the difference. The main absurdity is really the context of your review and the ensuing absurd comments that you have riddled this discussion with like saying that homosexuality isn't sin and that people can't repent of it (which totally contradicts what God says about this and what nature reveals to us) and your incessant and ridiculously lame accusations of "hatred." If anyone has been hateful in this discussion it is you by far evidenced by your slanderous allegations that you stubbornly and irrationally keep spewing out simply because you have no argument on this issue. You just need to give it up my friend.

William Fisher

Aaron, I am concerned only with reality and reason. I really can't be doing with evidence-free, counterfactual dogmas, with irrational fantasies, or with arguments based on Humpty Dumpty games and other fallacious debating tricks. Nor can I be doing with harmful anti-gay agendas, whether tied to religious beliefs or not, or with the peddling of cruel hoaxes like "ex-gay ministry" and similar programs, which con vulnerable people into wasting years -- and usually what should have been the best years -- of their lives. With you it is clearly the opposite. We therefore have no point of contact, and no useful purpose can be served by any further argument or debate. I must thank you, however, for your posts, which have revealed so much about your attitude and your way of thinking; I have found them most illuminating.

I haven't read this book myself, which is why I haven't attempted to write a review of it, although I am familiar with the general line that Michael Brown takes, from seeing and hearing interviews with him and from reading articles by him. I am sure that what the late Sir Oliver Lodge wrote just over a century ago about a writer on another religious theme is also applicable here:

"I suppose he may be credited with good intentions; which I always consider the feeblest kind of praise, because the only people without good intentions are criminals; and I am not so sure about them."

Aaron

William, the knowledge and understanding that we get from human bodily design and the way nature REALLY works is not "evidence-free," "counterfactual dogma" or an "irrational fantasy" and for you to even insinuate such nonsense is very illuminating about you. Your so-called "concern" with reality and reason is the exact opposite of what you claim that it is. Your "logic" is merely an avoidance of reality and reason evidenced by your constant denial and belittling of the significance of human biology and the absoluteness that we see from the male/female structure. I agree with you that we have no point of contact since you insist on railing against common sense and that the discussion should end. Again, hopefully it will end now that we have once again gotten down to brass tacks on what the real issue is.

Devin

Bye, Aaron.

See also Homosexuals Are Not 'Born Gay' : Evidence from Science (Genetics) and History (Anthropology)

Also The Bible, Tradition, and Catechism on Homosexuality, Sexual Morality, and Marriage


Books by Dr. Michael Brown and others on this issue:

Can You Be Gay and Christian? by Michael L. Brown   Outlasting the Gay Revolution by Michael L. Brown   A Queer Thing Happened to America by Michael L. Brown   God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines   Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays vs. Christians Debate by Justin Lee

See also these scholarly books and debates on the subject:

The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics
by Robert A.J. Gagnon (Abingdon Press, 2002)

Homosexuality and the Bible: Two Views
by Robert A.J. Gagnon and Dan O. Via (Fortress Press, 2003)

Debating Same-Sex Marriage (Point/Counterpoint)
by John Corvino and Maggie Gallagher (Oxford Univ Press, 2012)

What Is Marriage?: Man and Woman: A Defense
by Sherif Girgis, Ryan Anderson, Robert George (Encounter Books, 2012)


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