Corresponding with an anti-Catholic Fundamentalist


Corresponding with an anti-Catholic Fundamentalist

P says: I get a lot of Emails like this. I wanted to put up one good representative sample. So here is the initial Email from "Cliff" an anti-Catholic Fundamentalist who follows Charles Chiniquy (an ex-Catholic priest and author of 50 Years in the Church of Rome) and Dave Hunt, the anti-Catholic Fundamentalist Dispensationalist. I follow up with my responses, quoting most of Cliff's Emails (in italics). 9/5/2005. This is why I "retired" from online apologetics Summer 2002, but I still try to reply to the occasional Email like this. I show "no mercy" to these kinds of people. You can find me on occasion at the Catholic Answers boards.


The Initial Email from "Cliff": Charles Chiniquy and Dave Hunt are right?

Subj: Debate with Jason
Date: 9/3/2005 11:27:46 PM Eastern Standard Time
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Dear Sir,

You only resolved to me, that you, and the Roman Catholic Church does not know what or who the Truth is all about. It's about the Living Word, and the Word which is Truth, and that Truth only exists within the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Something your harlot system knows nothing about. Your system of "religion" has always murdered in the name of Jesus Christ, something He always deplored and hated, for it was not out of Love, but to control. And to control, only comes from the god of this world. And that god is Satan, the author of your religion.

We as true believers in Jesus Christ, being born by the Will of God, and not that of blood, nor our own will, nor of the will of man, but of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. By believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the one and only true God.

We are not saved by believing in a "religious" sect, and obey them, we obey the leading of the Holy Spirit, and need not a man to teach us, for the Spirit of the living God dwells within our hearts by faith. We are saved because of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ, and are saved because of HIS ATONING work upon the Cross. Not because man says so, but because Jesus Christ said so.

You nor your Roman Catholic Church believes upon the Jesus Christ that Jason or I believe in. You believe in a false jesus that your so called "Church" conjured up, it's all a fable, right from Babylon.

Dave Hunt is truly a man of the living God, you are not, you are decieved, and you incourage others to believe in the so-called church fathers. Well your church fathers, are not the ones I read, and desire to walk after, for they are false, names of the true saints covering over your false gods and demons.

I shall pray for you, but may I suggest you read a book written in the late 1800's by an ex-priest, Charles Chiniquy, "50 years in the Roman Catholic Church", this book truly represents, the evil intents of your harlot system, and the murderous intentions of the church.

But let be God be True, and every man a liar. The real history of your cult religion is truly the author of deceit, murder, and scandal. The Lord Himself, told us how we shall be able to recognize who is a true believer or not, it's by their fruit. The fruit of the Spirit is Love, Peace, Patient, Long-suffering, love for the Truth, Holiness, Righteous ness, meekness, humility.

The fruit of the Roman Catholic Church is murder, drunkeness, lies, fornication, robbery, and every work of darkness. So you tell me who I should follow you and your evil cult? Or the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word.

I'll take the true Jesus Christ, not the spirit of the anti-christ which your cult follows.

The Lord bless you with His Truth, Light and Love,

And grant you the gift of repentance, so that you may see what path you are walking.

In Jesus Christ my Lord,

Cliff


The First Response: The Nicene Creed and Please Answer my Two Questions

From: P
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:47:19 EDT
Subject: Thanks for your note, A couple of questions for you

Thank you for your note. And thank you for reading my debate with Jason Engwer on the Catholic Church.

This was my opening statement. I stand by it. Well written, complete defense why the Catholic Church is the true Church. Here is my response to your Email. I also have 2 questions I would like answered at the bottom. Please do the best you can answering them.

Cliff << Dear Sir, You only resolved to me, that you, and the Roman Catholic Church does not know what or who the Truth is all about. It's about the Living Word, and the Word which is Truth, and that Truth only exists within the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Something your harlot system knows nothing about. Your system of "religion" has always murdered in the name of Jesus Christ, something He always deplored and hated, for it was not out of Love, but to control. And to control, only comes from the god of this world. And that god is Satan, the author of your religion. >>

As a response to this I will quote our statement of faith. It is called the Nicene Creed. Perhaps you have heard of this creed.

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God....

Cliff << We as true believers in Jesus Christ, being born by the Will of God, and not that of blood, nor our own will, nor of the will of man, but of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. By believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the one and only true God. >>

....begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures...

Cliff << We are not saved by believing in a "religious" sect, and obey them, we obey the leading of the Holy Spirit, and need not a man to teach us, for the Spirit of the living God dwells within our hearts by faith. We are saved because of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ, and are saved because of HIS ATONING work upon the Cross. Not because man says so, but because Jesus Christ said so. You nor your Roman Catholic Church believes upon the Jesus Christ that Jason or I believe in. You believe in a false jesus that your so called "Church" conjured up, it's all a fable, right from Babylon. Dave Hunt is truly a man of the living God, you are not, you are decieved, and you incourage others to believe in the so-called church fathers. Well your church fathers, are not the ones I read, and desire to walk after, for they are false, names of the true saints covering over your false gods and demons. >>

....he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets....

Cliff << I shall pray for you, but may I suggest you read a book written in the late 1800's by an ex-priest, Charles Chiniquy, "50 years in the Roman Catholic Church", this book truly represents, the evil intents of your harlot system, and the murderous intentions of the church. >>

....We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

Charles Chiniquy: Review of "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome"

Please point out any errors you see in the above. Including the Nicene Creed which is our statement of faith. Now you know what we believe.

I would also recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church to you, especially the section explaining the Creed.

Cliff << But let be God be True, and every man a liar. The real history of your cult religion is truly the author of deceit, murder, and scandal. The Lord Himself, told us how we shall be able to recognize who is a true believer or not, it's by their fruit. The fruit of the Spirit is Love, Peace, Patient, Long-suffering, love for the Truth, Holiness, Righteous ness, meekness, humility. >>

A few articles (here on Scandals, Sins and Shortcomings of the Church) you may want to consider before coming to any rash conclusions.

Cliff << The fruit of the Roman Catholic Church is murder, drunkeness, lies, fornication, robbery, and every work of darkness. So you tell me who I should follow you and your evil cult? Or the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word. I'll take the true Jesus Christ, not the spirit of the anti-christ which your cult follows. The Lord bless you with His Truth, Light and Love, And grant you the gift of repentance, so that you may see what path you are walking. >>

You should follow Jesus Christ, and you should belong to His Church, a visible Church that he began 2000 years ago. The fruit of the Spirit is clearly outlined in the Scriptures, and explained in detail in this book by Thomas a Kempis, The Imitation of Christ.

That is the fruit of the Spirit.

Cliff << In Jesus Christ my Lord, Cliff >>

I've responded. Now can you answer some questions for me?

(1) Why are there 27 books in your New Testament, and how do you know those books, and only those books are inspired by God?

(2) Why should I accept your interpretations of the Scriptures are true, when there are thousands of Protestant denominations that disagree with your interpretations, and they all say "I go by what the Scripture SAYS." Who is right?

Come on over to the Catholic Answers forums, I'm sure we'll have a lot of fun discussing our differences. If you are brave enough, and if you sincerely believe you have the truth, and explain why you believe the other thousands of Protestant denominations you disagree with are wrong.

P

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics


The Second Response: On Baptism, and You Didn't Answer my Two Questions

From: P
Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 22:56:24 -0400
Subject: a couple more challenges for you

Cliff << Dear Mr. Vaz, Thank you for your response. Actually I was quite surprised that you responded at all. >>

Don't be surprised. I respond to all the notes I get. All of them in detail. [edit: well virtually all].

Cliff << As for your questions to be answered, I have answered them, it's all in my first email. >>

The questions were:

(1) Why are there 27 books in your New Testament, and how do you know those books, and only those books are inspired by God?

(2) Why should I accept your interpretations of the Scriptures are true, when there are thousands of Protestant denominations that disagree with your interpretations, and they all say "I go by what the Scripture SAYS." Who is right?

If you answered those questions, I must have missed it. Can you answer them now? Again?

Cliff << I do not follow any creed, I follow the Lord's living word, KJV only. >>

So the Nicene Creed is in error then? Which parts? Do you believe Jesus Christ is God from God? Do you believe Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God? Do you believe Jesus Christ is one in being with the Father? If so, you agree with the Creed. If not, how do I know you have the truth, and the Creed in error? Who says?

KJV Only? Makes no sense to me. If Jesus used the KJV English Bible, its good enough for you, right? Are you saying Jesus Christ used the King James Bible and spoke in English when He walked on this earth? I don't want to misunderstand you.

Cliff << And I will not read the slanderous lies against Charles Chiniquy. Your "church" is notorious for that. >>

Thanks, but you are wrong. Charles Chiniquy doesn't have his facts straight. So the Roman Catholic Church is responsible for the death of Abraham Lincoln, huh? That's what he says. And that is nuts.

Cliff << And you err regarding the fruits of the Spirit. And "baptizing" does not save, Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the only reason we are saved. His death for our sins, period. Baptizing is only the symbolism for "dying to self, and rising in Him. >>

Nice try, but I go by what Scripture says. Here is what Scripture says on Baptism.

Catholics accept the plain and literal meaning of the biblical texts. Baptism is the means by which the Holy Spirit regenerates and saves the person, and all sins committed prior to Baptism are forgiven and washed away by the power of Christ (John 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom 6:1ff; 1 Cor 6:11; Gal 3:27; Eph 5:26f; Col 2:11ff; 1 Peter 3:21; etc).

You say: << Baptizing is only the symbolism for >>

Please show me in the Scriptures where Baptism is called "symbolism for." The words "symbolism for" is nowhere found in the Scriptures. You go by "Scripture alone" (KJV only) so show me where your teaching on Baptism as "symbolism for" is found in the Scriptures. It is nowhere in the Scriptures. Believe me, I've looked.

What the Scriptures say:

Baptism is "for the forgiveness of sins" where we "receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).
Baptism is where we "put on Christ" and are risen with Christ in "new life" (Gal 3:27; Romans 6:2-4).
Baptism is where we are "regenerated by the Holy Spirit" and "born of water and the Spirit" or "born again" (Titus 3:5; John 3:5; cf. John 3:3-7; 1:29ff; 3:22ff; 4:1ff).
Baptism is where we "wash away our sins" (Acts 22:16).
Baptism is where we are "saved" (1 Peter 3:21; also Mark 16:15-16).
Baptism is where we receive the "circumcision of Christ" (Col 2:11-13).

BTW, that is the UNANIMOUS teaching of the Fathers, the Bishops, all saints, all doctors, and all CHRISTIAN TEACHERS for 1,500 years. That is also the teaching of all Eastern Orthodox, most Lutherans, Anglicans/Episcopalians, and Churches of Christ, along with the Catholic Church. Now you are saying all these folks are interpreting the Scriptures incorrectly. But why should I believe you? Why? Why? Why?

Cliff << You know nothing about Him increasing, and you decreasing. Paul spoke concerning this very issue in many places. We are to die so that He may Live in our hearts by faith. We are to die to OUR self will, and human reasoning faculties, and the "traditions" of men. >>

You are the one with the traditions of men. Let's get that straight. Baptism as "symbolism for" is nowhere found in the Scriptures. It is a tradition of men and therefore condemned by Christ (Matthew 15:1-9; Col 2:8).

Cliff << The whole "church" system is not of the Holy Spirit, your tradition is after the old, not the new. I'll keep walking in the direction that the Lord is leading in, I care not how many other so-called Protesants follow your deception, they are becoming the enemies of the cross. The blind lead the blind sir, it was the same in Jesus time, and it is the same now. >>

Sir, sir, sir, how do I know you have the truth? Sir, sir, sir, how do I know you are not blind? Sir, sir, sir, maybe you are teaching deception? How do you know? How do I know? How do we know? Sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, can you give me any assurance you are not teaching deception, you are not blind, and that you have the truth? SIR?

Now please answer my two questions. If you can. I don't think you can.

The questions were:

(1) Why are there 27 books in your New Testament, and how do you know those books, and only those books are inspired by God?

(2) Why should I accept your interpretations of the Scriptures are true, when there are thousands of Protestant denominations that disagree with your interpretations, and they all say "I go by what the Scripture SAYS." Who is right?

P

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics


The Third Response: Answer to your Questions is "the truth dwells in my heart"

From: P
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 15:16:56 EDT
Subject: even more challenges for you

Cliff << Dear Phil, I was born again, not because of water baptism, but in my room in 1978 the Holy Spirit came and opened my eyes and showed me that my life was believing in a lie. I thought that I was a Christian, and I believed in Jesus, but my life showed no proof that I was a believer, and that I was not a true Christian. >>

And Jesus Christ says you were born again when you were "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5). And the apostle Peter says you received forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit at Baptism (Acts 2:38).

Cliff << When the Lord revealed to me my sin, and it was a sin, I was stunned, but I knew it to be true. The Lord granted me the gift of repentance, by revealing the truth. I had no bible with me, I only had a small tract. >>

Fantastic, and I'm supposed to believe you have the truth because you got a feeling you were saved and read a tract and now you say everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Wonderful. Makes absolutely no sense. I'll follow the Jesus Christ who founded His Church 2000 years ago, the Church of the apostles, the Church of the Fathers, Saints, and all the early Christians, the same One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Creeds. You are saying Jesus Christ is a liar for letting His Church fall into apostasy and error. Blasphemy. You want strong words, you got it. Blasphemy, error and apostasy, that's what you have to offer me instead. Thanks but no thanks.

Cliff << And that tract mentioned how the Lord through the Power of the Holy Spirit could Change a man from the inside, the heart was changed. I wondered how could a man's life be changed like that, how was it possible. Well the Lord showed me, I saw the truth, and I wept that I had so lived a lie, and asked forgiveness, and asked Jesus to be the Lord of my life, and I invited Him in. Jesus shed blood is the means by which we are forgiven, and cleansed from our sins. I was filled with the Holy Spirit, that night, and I knew my sins were forgiven, and I felt clean, and my feet felt like they barely could touch the ground. I felt I died and went to heaven. The burdern of sin and shame was gone. It was done out of pure love, and the Love of God leadeth a man to repentance, that is what the bible says, and it was proven to me on that night. The next day I went to work in a bar, proclaiming my salvation, and I was not yet baptised with water. After a few hours I realized I must quit my job, and I did just that, walked out and never went back. I ended up selling flowers on street corners, handing out phamphlets, but I did not care, for I had Jesus living within my heart by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is what being born again is all about. >>

I'm sorry you won't find any of that in John chapter 3. Born again = "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:3,5,7). That is what born again means according to the Bible, King James Bible, NIV, NASB, Douay-Rheims, it doesn't matter. Born again = born of water and the Spirit according to Jesus Christ. That is BAPTISM. Not to say Catholics don't have faith, we do. But born again = BAPTISM according to the Bible. That is the primary means of forgiveness of sins, receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, regeneration and "new life" according to John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:2-4, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21, and all the Biblical texts I gave you. If you take the Bible seriously, you will believe born again = Baptism. And so did St. Ignatius of Antioch forward, St. Augustine forward, St. John Chrysostom forward, and all the rest of the earliest CHRISTIANS who wrote and spoke on John chapter 3 and Baptism. They are saying very loudly and very clearly, you SIR, are wrong.

Cliff << You can have all your creeds, and all your traditions of doing things within the church, but that does not prove you are a child of God, and once that Holy Spirit is birthed in your heart, you are sealed f forever and you know in your heart that you are The Lord's and you will dwell with him forever, and ever. Because the truth witnesses within your heart, as you read God's word. I do not care what any denomination has for a creed, creeds are not the life of God, creeds are man made, and they do not SAVE YOU. >>

Hello is anybody home? I didn't say the creeds save you, I said the Creed is how we know what to believe as TRUE, the true faith, the true teachings about Jesus. Why should I believe YOU have the truth on Baptism, on Jesus Christ, on ANYTHING? Why should I believe the creed is in error? You haven't answered that other than to say you got a feeling you were saved, therefore I should believe you have the truth, and the Catholic Church is in error. That doesn't add up logically. God created your brain, use it. God is the God of truth and reason (Isaiah 65:16; 1:18). All the facts, evidence, logic, and reasoning I have tells me you SIR, are wrong.

Cliff << God does all the saving, by FAITH alone in Jesus Christ, and His death, the shedding of His blood upon the Cross. That is how we are saved, that "whosoever believeth in Him, shall not parish but have ever lasting life". John 3:16. For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able, to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day" So how do I know I have the TRUTH, the TRUTH dwells in my heart, not just in my mind, but my heart. >>

So how do I access your HEART so I can know what to believe. I need something more objective other than the truth dwells in your heart. That is not good enough. It makes no sense to leave the Creeds and the teaching of the Catholic Church and believe what you have "in your heart" is the truth. WHY should I believe you and your heart? You aren't answering my questions. "FAITH ALONE" is specifically and explicitly rejected by James 2:24. "Faith working in love" is specifically and explicitly affirmed in Galatians 5:6. That is the Bible teaching. "Faith alone" is not in there.

Cliff << Your trust is in words, and tradition, and reasoning. You are not sure if you are saved, you still think you will end up in pergatory. Well that's a lie, when I die, I will enter straight way into my Heavenly Father's kingdom, why? For the Bible tells me so. >>

No it does not, but it appears we have a difference in biblical interpretation. My position on the Bible teaching on that is the following:

The Catholic position is consistent with itself, with human experience, and with the Scriptures. God's foreknowledge and foreordination of the elect to heavenly glory includes His universal desire and sufficient grace to save all men, our free cooperation with His grace, good works which truly merit heavenly reward, and the real possibility -- during this life of testing and pilgrimage -- of rejecting grace and salvation and thus deserving the punishments of hell.

That makes the most sense of what the Bible has to say on the subject, if you take the Bible seriously that is. For more go here: Predestination, Catholicism, and Calvinism

Cliff << I will answer your questions, why are there 27 books in my new testament, I do not know why, but I will tell you this, I do not care to know why, I read nowhere in the bible, where it stipulates we must know how many books there are to be in the bible, or that any of the apostles telling us how many books are in the bible and it's importance. >>

OK, now we're getting somewhere. You have no idea why there are 27 books in your New Testament. I suggest you start looking into that before you start telling people to read those 27 books in the New Testament. You have no idea why those books are in there, and why the content in there is the truth, other than you got a feeling a number of years back that you were saved, and you have the truth in your heart. Wonderful, Fantastic, I suggest you should keep that to yourself then, shut up and keep silent, because no one can access your heart, and you have no reasons for faith. But God is the God of truth and reason (Isaiah 65:16; 1:18) and the apostle Peter says always be ready to give an answer to someone who asks (1 Peter 3:15).

You SIR, have no reasons and have no answers other than "I believe what I believe because I believe it." Your so-called faith is against reason and against logic, and therefore against God and the apostle Peter. More blasphemy from you. You have given me ZERO reasons to believe you have the truth.

Cliff << I am only interested in what the Lord desires of me to Learn of HIM, and HIS ways, and His doctrine, and not of any man made tradition fo doing things. That is what faith is all about, Faith in God and Him alone. The Holy Spirit teaches me of His ways, Jesus said that is why the Holy Spirit was being sent, to proclaim HIM. It's all about Jesus Christ, His shed blood, and HIs ressurection. You can talk all you want about this creed that creed, how many people believe this or that. It's all about Jesus Christ, and how we are to grow into His fullness, to be a witness unto Him and His purposes. >>

How in the world do you KNOW what you BELIEVE about Jesus Christ is TRUE? That's what I'm asking you. You do not and cannot know what you believe about Jesus Christ is TRUE when you throw out and ignore the Creeds of the Catholic Church. Think about this carefully. You admit you have no idea WHY there are 27 books in your New Testament. You do not therefore know that New Testament is the truth either.

To proclaim HIM, WHY? You have no reason to proclaim him. You do not and cannot know what you believe about him is the truth. Let's recap your "reasons for faith": you got a feeling back there in 1978 that you were saved, and the reason you proclaim him is because the truth is in your heart. Wonderful, but it gives you no reason to proclaim him. You have no AUTHORITY to proclaim him either. So I suggest from now on, you keep your faith to yourself, shut up and keep silent. You have no reason to proclaim him. God is the God of truth and reason (Isaiah 65:16; 1:18) so God wants you to shut up and keep silent until you come up with some reasons for faith (1 Peter 3:15).

BTW, my good reasons to proclaim him are found here in my debate with Jason Engwer.

I haven't seen you dispute a single point I made in this opening statement. Other than to recommend Charles Chiniquy which I have already shown is a liar. See all the documentation in those links I provided.

Cliff << If you want to know the truth, go to God himelf, seek Him out of a sincere heart, and you shall find Him. He said that, and it's a promise. And He of all people keeps His promises. You are responsible for what and who you believe in, and if you want to believe in your church, and that by believing in it you will be safe, and saved, well then go ahead and believe it. >>

Buddy, here is your problem. I have done that very very carefully for many many years. I have gone to God himself with a sincere heart, and I have come to one conclusion. Jesus Christ is proclaimed and believed and accepted by faith most fully in the Catholic Church. That is where I receive the truth of Christ, that is where I receive his sacraments, that is how I know what books belong in my Bible, since Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church. All the evidence, reasons and logic point to the fact that Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church. That is where the truth is.

To quote Jaraslav Pelikan, the Lutheran church historian:

"To identify orthodox doctrine, one had to identify its locus, which was the catholic church, neither Eastern nor Western, neither Greek nor Latin, but universal throughout the civilized world (oikoumene). This church was the repository of truth, the dispenser of grace, the guarantee of salvation, the matrix of acceptable worship. Only here did God accept sacrifices, only here was there confident intercession for those who were in error, only here were good works fruitful, only here did the powerful bond of love hold men together and 'only from the catholic church does truth shine forth.' " (Pelikan, The Christian Tradition, volume 1, page 115-117, 334-335)

To quote the Anglican historian, A.J. Mason:

"The society was well known and unmistakable. Its doctrine was everywhere the same; its worship, with rich diversity of forms, centered around one Eucharistic memorial. It had an organized hierarchy for worship and for the pastorate of souls. This hierarchy maintained union between the local branches, and did so in the name and by the authority of Christ. However far back the history is traced, no date can be assigned, however roughly, for the appearance of Catholicism in the Church. The Church was Catholic from the outset." (Mason, cited in The Church and Infallibility [1954] by BC Butler, page 37-38)

Cliff << But you will die in your sins, and the condemnation that will come upon you will be of your own doing, becuase you refused to believe in the real Jesus Christ. >>

You know that is wrong since you cannot give me a reason to believe you have the real Jesus Christ. Case closed. Maybe you will die in your sins, but I can't see your heart, only God can. And the Catholic Church calls you a brother in Christ, even when you condemn her. See Vatican II, Decree on Ecumenism.

Cliff << The true Church, the True body of Jesus Christ, are the true believers, those that are born of the Spirit of God, because they believe they are saved by faith alone, because it is a gift from God, He helps us believe in the truth. >>

No that is not the Church of the Bible, that is a false teaching, and I have demonstrated that quite clearly in my debate with Jason Engwer. The "elect" is not equated with the Church. That is not the Bible teaching.

Cliff << You see the difference between you and I is, I try and point you to Jesus Christ, to follow HIm, and Him alone. >>

The difference between you and I is that I have a REASON to follow Jesus Christ and a REASON to know what I believe about Him is the truth. You have no reasons other than a feeling you got back in 1978 and a tract you read. And you have already admitted you have no idea why there are 27 books in your New Testament. That is the same as saying "I believe what I believe because I believe it." It is against reason and logic, and I'll remind you again that God is the God of truth and reason (Isaiah 65:16; 1:18) and the apostle Peter says we should have reasons for faith to everyone who asks (1 Peter 3:15). You have no reasons for faith.

Cliff << You try and tell me to follow your church and I will know Jesus. That is following man, and his word, that is not what Jesus taught. And if you don't know or see the difference, then you do not KNOW Jesus. Thank you it's been a pleasure having this discussion with you. May the Good and Gracious Lord above bless you with the saving knowledge of HIMSELF. >>

You have already admitted you cannot know what you believe about Jesus is the truth. You have thrown out the Creeds, you have rejected the Church Jesus founded. You cannot know the truth about Jesus. You might have the wrong Jesus, but only God knows your heart.

I can't say its been a pleasure, but if you care to respond, do so. I might put this discussion up on my web site.

Are you still surprised I responded yet again????

P


The Fourth Response: Don't Waste My Time???

From: P
Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 18:12:04 -0400 
Subject: I want to know the truth, what is it?

Cliff << Dear Phil, I'm not going to waiste any more time with you. Phil, you argue for arguing. I shall not do that. If you want to know the truth seek out the Lord for your self, go buy from those who sell. >>

Thanks for not answering my two questions. You have no idea what you believe is true, so you are probably right that you should shut up and keep quiet and stop arguing with me, and stop preaching your false gospel to other people. You have no answers, you have no truth, you have nothing to offer me other than misrepresentations and misunderstandings of the Catholic Church, and your lies, blasphemy, and error, SIR.

How does it feel to take a little bit of your own medicine, you can dish it out but you can't take it, is that it, SIR?

I have seeked and I have found. Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church 2000 years ago. That is the truth I have found. And you have given me no reasons to believe otherwise. Charles Chiniquy is a liar,  Dave Hunt is a liar, and everything I have read from them shows me these folks know nothing of the Church, don't understand Catholic teaching, and do not have the truth. Blasphemy, lies, and error, that's all they have.

Cliff << God's word is true, it's the Blood of Jesus which cleanes us from our sin. Nothing but the Blood of Jesus. It is why He died, to shed His blood for an atonement against our sin. The Old testament is filled with scriptures that point to the "sacrifice", the blood was to atone for the people's sins. Scriptures about the blood are as follows: Mt26:28, Ac 20:28, Rom 5:9, Col 1:20, Heb 9:14, 1Pe 1:18,19, 1Jn1:7, Rev 1:5, Re 7:14,and many others, look them up for yourself. >>

Wonderful, fantastic, and EVERY ONE of those Scriptures are quoted in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in the Councils, by all the Fathers, by all the Doctors, and all the saints and Christians of the Catholic Church have commented on them, read them, believed them FOR 2000 YEARS. And they all say you are DEAD WRONG in your interpretations of them.

I have read them very carefully and conclude the Catholic Church has the right interpretation, and the Catholic Church is preaching and teaching the truth about Jesus Christ.

And that you are wrong in your interpretations. Now what are you going to do about that?

Cliff << That's it, not going to waiste anymore of my time. I shall pray for you. In Jesus Christ, Cliff >>

PLEASE pray for me, I need it, but you didn't answer my two questions, and you have no idea why you believe what you believe. So that gives me NO REASON to believe you have the truth.

(1) Why are there 27 books in your New Testament, and how do you know those books, and only those books are inspired by God?

(2) Why should I accept your interpretations of the Scriptures are true, when there are thousands of Protestant denominations that disagree with your interpretations, and they all say "I go by what the Scripture SAYS." Who is right?

You didn't even tell me what kind of church you attend, if any? Or what kind of church you attended in the past? I was interested in that also. And that even despite your blasphemy, lies, and errors, SIR.

You can dish it out, but you can't take it, is that right, SIR?

P


The Fifth Response: "Nothing But the Blood of Jesus" is a good hymn

From: P
Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 21:18:34 -0400 
Subject: "nothing but the blood of Jesus" is not biblical

Cliff << Dear Phil, Nothing but the blood of Jesus. What does cleanse away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus. Satan and your church really hate the blood of Jesus. That's unfortunate, for the only thing that can redeem you from your sins, is the one thing you deny. Cliff >>

That is all you have in response? Have you ever read anything from the Catechism of the Catholic Church or been to a Mass? The blood of Jesus is preached and proclaimed all throughout. How ignorant can you be when you say the Catholic Church really hates the blood of Jesus? Have you ever heard of the Eucharist? That is the body and blood of Christ according to the Scriptures.

Now can you quote me a Scripture that says "nothing but the blood of Jesus." I believe that is the name of a church hymn (by Baptist minister Robert Lowry), but it is not a direct biblical statement. I have already quoted for you Acts 2:38 and the rest on Baptism. You had no response to that.

I will now quote for you Scripture that says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have eternal life, and that means the Eucharist (John 6:51ff; Matthew 26:26ff; Luke 22:19ff; 1 Cor 10:16ff; 11:23ff).

Do you really have any BIBLICAL defense for your beliefs? Or is it just what you make up is the truth?

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." (John 6:51-58, RSV)

My Article on the Eucharist and John 6:51ff is cited here

So on top of those two questions I have already asked you, I am now looking for your biblical defense of the phrase "nothing but the blood of Jesus" which means according to you, that Baptism and the Eucharist do nothing, that they are purely symbolical. If you believe that, you need to come up with a biblical defense for that. Don't forget the apostle Peter says always be ready to give reasons for your faith (1 Peter 3:15).

So no, you are again wrong, since "nothing but the blood of Jesus" is not a biblical statement.

P

by "Cliff" and P


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