Catholic Creationism and Jack Chick Comics


Catholic Creationism and Jack Chick Comics: A Comparison

verbatim unedited posts from the Catholic Answers forums, December 2005

with links to the TalkOrigins Index to Creationist Claims and other sources

jessejames 

T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

On Bob Sungenis' web site he has this news story posted. Does soft tissue really support a young earth? (AgapePress) - The president of Answers in Genesis says the recent discovery of a dinosaur bone in Montana supports the biblical creationist theory of a young Earth. .....

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three-sixteen 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

i dont know why so many Catholics believe in Evolution. Its a ridiculous theory with no evidence. Darwin said in "Origin of Species" that if his theory was true scientists should find innumerable intermediate species (missing links). Well, in the 150 years since his theory zero have been found, neither missing links from ape to human or from anything to anything else. VARIATION does exist and God created this. For example, my mom is the oldest of 13 kids. The tallest is around 6 feet while the shortest is 5 foot. Skin color ranges from very dark Portugee (my mom is half Portugese) to very fair skin (my mom is half German). This is ONLY variation, not evolution. This is what we see on planet earth. In Genesis GOD tells us that He created animals and plants to reproduce "after their kind." That means that each kind of animal will never reproduce another kind of animal. A dog will never give birth to a bird or a banana. A white moth may give birth to a black moth but never to a fig newton. There are limits to Variation and these limits never include evolving to a separate kind of animal

by the way i am a Catholic myself. No Church teaching says we must believe evolution. In fact we MUST believe that the human soul was specially created by GOD. But if we believe the BIBLE then we will reject Evolution, the Fairy Tale For Grownups

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three-sixteen 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

P you are so quick to be a spokesperson against the Bible. I wonder--whose team are you on, God or satan's? What if when you get to Heaven and the Judgment Seat of Christ, He is upset with you for defending a lie from the pit of Hell? Have you ever wondered if there might be some sort of judgment for that, a longer stay in Purgatory perhaps?

Phil, paragraph 159 that you mentioned from the Catechism states that "there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason," and that "God cannot deny Himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth." Thus the Truth God reveals in the Bible cannot contradict what we find in the Universe. The Bible says, "In the Beginning GOD." Evolutionists say, "in the beginning, DIRT." 

God says that He created the Heavens and Earth in seven days. These must be literal days and not long periods of time because He created the sun a day after He created plants. Think about it... I know, Phil, that He did things like that just to humble the proud and foolish people that believe in evolution, or the people that want to believe both the Bible and evolution. It is reason that says this beautiful Universe must have a Creator. And, Phil, faith tells us the same.

Just answer me this, Phil: how would things like the human eye evolve? Darwin himself admitted how absurd the idea of eye evolution seemed. The eye, like most biological things, ONLY works if ALL the parts are there AT THE SAME TIME and in working order. Thus, if in a pre-eyed organism, just one part of an eye was formed by mutation (99.9999 percent of mutations are harmful anyway), how would this lead to a complete eye? Just one randomly mutated section of an eye would NOT be beneficial in any way and would have no reason to be naturally selected. In order for an eye to function there must be a retina, cornea, conjunctiva, iris, vitreous, macula, crystalline lens, optic nerves, and extraocular muscles ALL WORKING PROPERLY and together AT THE SAME TIME. If all these parts weren't here, Phil, if even ONE part was not there, the whole eye would be USELESS. Thus, enigmas like these are little proofs from God to humble the proud. As the book of Romans says, "thinking themselves wise, they have become FOOLS." 

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three-sixteen 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

dearest Orogeny of the Species,

while i knew you so admire Charles Darwin as to name yourself after his science fiction book, i must confess that you are judging me in a much more unfair way than i have judged Groundhog Phil. You see, Orogeny of the Species, my view is in accord with Church teaching and you know it. The Church teaching says we MUST believe that God specially created the human soul. And as you just saw, Church teaching says that "truth cannot contradict truth," nor can "faith contradict reason," because God created both faith and reason

i agree that we could be discussing more important things, like going to Daily Mass and saying the Rosary daily. These things i do. However i have studied CATHOLIC books that show evolution to be a silly Fairy Tale for Grownups

In the fairy tales, a frog + a kiss = a Prince. In Evolution, a frog + time = a Prince. Time is the magical component of Evolution. If evolution is inobservable and seemingly ridiculous today, scientists resort to the "billions and billions of years" that evolution needs. 

"The Scientific Viewpoint" as you mentioned includes a lot of science AGAINST evolution---not just science that seems to show that evolution may have happened. The stronger science favors the Creationist point of view. Fossils themselves, especially the great death pits found throughout the world, are scientific evidence of, not evolution, but of a world-wide catastrophe (the Flood). You see, in order for a fossil to be formed, an organism must be BURIED RAPIDLY. Of all the buffaloes killed when the whites came to the Americas, practically no fossils were formed---because they were not buried rapidly. 

There is much evidence that proves the earth is not billions or even millions of years old. This science is rarely discussed. For example, before we landed on the moon, scientists calculated that since the moon was "billions of years old" there should me a great amount of space dust. People like Isaac Asimov predicted that the moonlander would descend out of view into a great layer of dust. But guess what? When we landed on the moon there was only a few THOUSAND years worth of dust accumulated---only a couple centimeters. There are many many unexplainable facts of science that show this earth and universe are young. i can list many more if you wish. 

So, Orogeny of the Species, dont pretend like everyone else that we are dealing with an issue of faith versus science. It is actually Science versus Science. And, surprisingly to many, the Creationist Scientific view is much stronger. 

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abcdefg 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

Earth is flat isn't a theology belief, it has no base in the Bible and so far I don't know which tradition shows it has anything to do with theology.

theologically speaking. believing in creationism/ID which reflects on God's omnipotence will make one go to heaven easier (no harder) than believing in evolution theory. 

God excepts the relationship between Him and human as close as possible. so it's impossible he would have let a monkey randomly mutates into a man (or in some slightly benign (and more tempting!) forms of ET he'll make a monkey a man) he created man using dust to directly show man, unlike other creatures which are mass created, is specially designed/created by Him from beginning.

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CindyGia 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

Quote: Originally Posted by Vir Dei
The Saints of the old believed in the creation story. Sure, they also believed in other things - such as the world being flat, but nevertheless, we believe they are in Heaven right now. If it was good enough for them to get into Heaven, then I think I'll go ahead and believe in the creation story. 

I'm with you Vir Dei. One question to all you evolution believers:

So then "what" exactly were Adam and Eve? Apes or fish?

This whole thread made me sick to my stomach! So this is Catholicism? The Church of Christ? The Church Christ gave His life for? A bunch of apes evolving into Christians?

I'm heartsick. This thread just wisened me up to not waste my time here anymore!

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three-sixteen 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth

praise be to GOD and to His Most Blessed Virgin Mary!!! This answer just came to me while worshipping GOD. It is SO SIMPLE!!!

First of all, as you yourself said, Phil, the Church is infallible only in matters of Faith and Morals. Thus this issue is just slightly out of the Church's area of expertise and domain. So if a certain priest or bishop or cardinal or pope believes in evolution himself that is beside the point and not binding to our Faith. 

But the answer, Phil, came to me while worshipping God downstairs while listening to a modern Christian Praise CD. GOD gives us the answer, Phil, to our investigation into origins of the earth and of man. The Bible says that "in Adam all die," and that "death came with the first sin." Praise be to GOD and to the VIRGIN!!!

There you have it, Phil, the answer! "It is impossible for GOD to lie," writes SAINT PAUL. Therefore the Church REQUIRES us to believe that Adam and Eve were real people and were the FIRST humans. We may NOT believe they were a group of people--no they were the FIRST TWO PEOPLE. And the Bible says that there was NO DEATH before Adam and Eve. How simple can it be, Phil? PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Thus there can be no millions and billions of years of natural selection and extinction---Phil it is IMPOSSIBLE, for "God cannot lie."

Sorry Phil, unless you want to huck your Bible out the window, you may not believe that there was death before Adam.

Once again i praise the LORD and the MOST BLESSED VIRGIN MARY.

By the way Phil, as is mentioned in this thread, the SAINTS have always believed, up to the present day of skepticism that GOD created the world in six days. And if you look at the writings of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich and Blessed Mary of Agreda, who both had mystical revelations on the Creation of the Universe and of the Life and Ministry of JESUS and the VIRGIN, you will find that GOD told them how old is the earth and the dates of the Biblical events such as the flood. They both were told by GOD that there were 5000 years of history before the INCARNATION OF CHRIST.

PRAISE BE TO THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH!!!

sorry Groundhog Phil, i can no longer believe your theories. I place higher the Word of God, and the Writing of the SAINTS. 

sorry, Phil, i left something out. For giving me this answer, I would also like to praise the MOST GLORIOUS SAINT JOSEPH!!!

Dinosaurs DO exist in the Bible. In chapter 40 of Job two types of Dinosaurs are mentioned: Leviathan and Behemoth. Read it. also, dinosaur bones and any kind of bones prove only ONE THING: that animal DIED.

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three-sixteen 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

Phil, you never answered why there was only centimeters of moon dust. Or could you tell me why there is not nearly enough mud on the ocean floor for billions of years (but only a few thousand years worth) or perhaps you could explain polystrata fossils to me? Polystrata fossils go through several layers of million year old dirt. Many fossilized trees are found that exist at once in several layers of supposedly really old dirt. Can you explain this? Also Phil we are losing our moon every year, but if you calculate the speed we are losing the moon, and go back in time, you will find that only a couple hundred thousand years ago the moon would have been so close to the earth that the high tides would have flooded the earth twice a day. Can you explain this Phil, considering you believe life and even human life to have existed on the earth at that time? How about the reason for so many large death pits around the world? Do these not rather give evidence of a world-wide flood and not slow gradual processes as you believe, because only animals that are buried rapidly form fossils. How about the fact that the Bible talks about a layer of water around the earth's atmosphere that fell during the Flood. This layer of water would have protected life on earth from harmful rays, enabling men and animals to live longer and grow bigger, explaining the ages of man in Genesis and also the giant specimens of all types of animals and plants we find in the past. Phil, how about the fact that carbon dates that don't line up with expected results are not published? For example, Phil, when a live seal is dated at 3000 years old, this is not discussed. Or how about the rocks that formed during Mount Saint Helens, that formed miniature Grand Canyons in a few hours and were later "dated" using modern techniques to be thousands and even millions of years old? Are these dating techniques all they're cracked up to be?

Phil, i believe you are deceived and i will pray the Rosary for you daily, because, Phil, you have a lot of little disciples here, who i believe would be more open and accepting of sensible Creationist arguments if it wasn't for you. God Bless, my friend. (btw im leaving on a trip for a week. Cheers) 

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three-sixteen 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

Phil, as long as were both still up i guess we can chat a little more.... 

Yes Phil i am a Kent Hovind fan. But i should say, Phil, that God led me to his ministry. I kept seeing these "Creation Science Updates" on the way walking out of a church i was going to at the time, and i remember thinking, "Creation Science---isn't that an oxymoron?"

But finally the guy at the table convinced me to check out a few videos and they happened to be part of Kent Hovind's Seminar series. Phil, i must admit, i was shocked to hear real scientific evidence that OPPOSED evolution. Phil, i remember in St. Bernards Elementary School the ONE day we covered the idea of Creationism. We ALL LAUGHED at the idea and that was it. Kent's information is fascinating, every bit of it. And he is very smart and funny and not dull as hell like Ken Ham (sorry Ken). i love him and his ministry. But Phil i have been giving my own thoughts and own words. I haven't been on his site in months, nor watched his videos lately. The only problem with Kent is that.....he's not Catholic

anyhow if this is our last exchange, its been memorable. bye for now Phil

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CindyGia 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

Quote: Originally Posted by Steve Andersen
it has nothing to do with "belief"
it is simply what we know


In having to simply look at the email sent to my in-box with this response, and without the desire to come back to this site to take up this argument, all I have to say to this comment from steveandersen is this:

Simply what you KNOW? 

Buddy, YOU DONT' KNOW JACK!!
Who do you people think you are??!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You think you've got it all figured out!!!!!
You think you've got it nailed down!!!!!
All God's mysteries!!!!
(Edited ad hominem) 

First off, it clearly says in Genesis "God CREATED man and woman" - it does not say God EVOLVED man, and then woman from tadpoles!! God CREATED man and woman!

I also will not allow you "know it alls" to try shoving down my throat that the earth is billions of years old and that dinosaurs existed 100 million years ago before the dawn of man. It clearly states in the book of Job, Psalms, and Wisdom, that dinosaurs were sent by God to destroy the wicked in Noahs' time. Of course now your argument will be that these "dinosaurs" were Rhinos and alligators, but not so - "Mr. Bubbles" - not so. And I call you all Mr. Bubbles since you are "all" so eager to proclaim being descendents of chimps!

In the Book of Wisdom it says this:

Quote: For not without means was your almighty hand, that had fashioned the universe from formless matter, to send upon them a drove of bears or fierce lions, Or new-created, wrathful, unknown beasts to breathe forth fiery breath, Or pour out roaring smoke, or flash terrible sparks from their eyes. Not only could these attack and completely destroy them; even their frightful appearance itself could slay.

Book of Wisdom 9:12 Not that you were without power to have the wicked vanquished in battle by the just, or wiped out at once by terrible beasts or by one decisive word;

Wisdom Chapter 13 Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original source of beauty fashioned them. Or if they were struck by their might and energy, let them from these things realize how much more powerful is he who made them. For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original author, by analogy, is seen.

Book of Wisdom Chapter 14 For of old, when the proud giants were being destroyed, the hope of the universe, who took refuge on a raft, left to the world a future for his race, under the guidance of your hand.

Wisdom Book 16 For against all expectation, in water which quenches anything, the fire grew more active; For the universe fights on behalf of the just. For now the flame was tempered so that the beasts might not be burnt up that were sent upon the wicked, but that these might see and know they were struck by the judgment of God;

16:27 For what was not destroyed by fire, when merely warmed by a momentary sunbeam, melted; So that men might know that one must give you thanks before the sunrise, and turn to you at daybreak. So that men might know that one must give you thanks before the sunrise, and turn to you at daybreak. For the hope of the ingrate melts like a wintry frost and runs off like useless water. 

Funny - these giant fierce monsters who breathed fire and devoured the wicked with armor unable to be penetrated, doesn't sound like some rhinos or alligators to me!! I really don't think anyways that a herd of rhinos or even the fiercest alligators could destroy an entire population of humans. Neither do they breath fire!

It also says in the Book of Job this:

SEE NEXT POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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CindyGia 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

In the book of Job it clearly mentions dinosaurs, or let's call them for arguments sake - dragons!!!!!

Quote: Job 41: I need hardly mention his limbs, his strength, and the fitness of his armor. Who can strip off his outer garment, or penetrate his double corselet? Who can force open the doors of his mouth, close to his terrible teeth? Rows of scales are on his back, tightly sealed together; They are fitted each so close to the next that no space intervenes; So joined one to another that they hold fast and cannot be parted. When he sneezes, light flashes forth; his eyes are like those of the dawn. Out of his mouth go forth firebrands; sparks of fire leap forth. From his nostrils issues steam, as from a seething pot or bowl. His breath sets coals afire; a flame pours from his mouth. Strength abides in his neck, and terror leaps before him. His heart is hard as stone; his flesh, as the lower millstone. When he rises up, the mighty are afraid; the waves of the sea fall back. Should the sword reach him, it will not avail; nor will the spear, nor the dart, nor the javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow will not put him to flight; slingstones used against him are but straws. Clubs he esteems as splinters; he laughs at the crash of the spear. His belly is sharp as pottery fragments; he spreads like a threshing sledge upon the mire. He makes the depths boil like a pot; the sea he churns like perfume in a kettle. Behind him he leaves a shining path; you would think the deep had the hoary head of age. Upon the earth there is not his like, intrepid he was made. All, however lofty, fear him; he is king over all proud beasts.

Psalm 104:25 Look at the sea, great and wide! It teems with countless beings, living things both large and small. Here ships ply their course; here Leviathan, your creature, plays.

SEE NEXT POST!!!

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CindyGia

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST - AND THANK GOD THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST HERE!!

The Book of Job also tells us this:

Quote: JOB 40 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

The description of the scales is interesting. Several verses describe these great scales. Compared to Leviathan’s armor, iron is like straw and arrows cannot make it flee. Let’s face it, an arrow can do a lot of damage to a crocodile or alligator. This is not a description of either of them -- or any living animal we are aware of.

And now for the key ingredient: fire. It is hard to read Job 41:18-21 without realizing the Bible is telling us that Leviathan breathes fire. That alone will eliminate almost every living animal. Yes, there is one animal like that in today’s world. It is called a bombardier beetle. This beetle is a native of Central America, and has a nozzle in its hind end that acts like a little flame thrower. It sprays a high-temperature jet of gas (fueled by hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide with oxidative enzymes) for protection. Now, if a Central American beetle can do it, so could Leviathan. By the way, crocodiles and alligators are out of the picture on this one, don’t you agree?

Before we leave the topic of fire, there are two more notes you may find interesting:

The history of every culture is filled with stories of fire-breathing dragons. If you think about it, in all the past ages wouldn’t someone have made up a story of a fire-breathing lion or something? Nobody did because the dragon stories are based on truth, and only "dragons" breathed fire. It is easy to imagine Leviathan as a member of the dragon (tanniyn) family. (Plus, Isaiah 27:1 strongly implies this connection.)

Many fossil dinosaur skulls contain unexplained, empty passages. Scientists have not been able to guess the reason for these passages. Would it make sense that some dinosaurs used these passages as "gas tanks" for the combustible mixture used to "breathe fire?" Maybe.

Comparing all this information to the description in dinosaur books, you may come up with the conclusion that Leviathan is a kronosaurus. We have heard (and read) other suggestions, but the kronosaurus is the best match of any known creature to the description of Leviathan. - "Taken from Dinosaurs and the Bible" 

More dinosaurs are found in Psalms 104:24:25

Quote: Look at the sea, great and wide! It teems with countless beings, living things both large and small. Here ships ply their course; here Leviathan, your creature, plays. 

AND ISAIAH 27:1

Quote: On that day, The LORD will punish with his sword that is cruel, great, and strong, Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the coiled serpent; and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea. 

So then Mr. Bubbles, dinosaurs are relatively young since they walked the earth in NOAH'S TIME!! They WERE SENT BY GOD to destroy the wicked. You can try all you want sending me link after link of what you deem "proof" that we as humans evolved from one single organism - but I won't believe it! I will stand by my KNOWLEDGE and belief as a Christian that man and woman are an image of God, - not a zygote somehow evolved to where God said "Hey look! This thing here somehow resembles US!!

In speaking with three nuns this morning after mass, I asked them if they taught evolution in school, since they are school teachers. They looked at me like I was crazy and said "NO!" I then told them of this argument on this site. They told me with great concern that God can choose whatever means He wants to create the world - and maybe the world itself came out of one organism, but that HE DID CREATE MAN AND WOMAN and that as Catholics we should not believe we came from apes, fish, or any other animal organism, simply because God created us in HIS IMAGE!

GOODBYE AND GOODNIGHT!

HAPPY NEW YEAR AS WELL

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three-sixteen 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

CindyGia you dont have to believe what these guys say or their quotes from certain Cardinals or Popes, because these Popes and Cardinals are not speaking on matters of faith or morals, so it is merely their OPINION--and not binding to our faith. What we MUST believe as Catholics is that Adam were two REAL people and the FIRST two people and that God specially created their soul. We must believe that the universe was created BY GOD from nothing. This is different from the Big Bang theory, which says that the universe started as a very small amount of mass that blew up and started expanded until it formed P and Orogeny (sorry guys!). 

To try to nicely fit the theory of evolution around what we must believe as Catholics is not easy, but these guys make their living trying to do it. It is their little game to feel good about themselves and feel smart. 99% of all Catholic Saints have believed in Creationism and NOT EVOLUTION, especially the two i keep mentioning: Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich (who wrote the Life of JESUS CHRIST and Biblical Revelations) and Blessed Mary of Agreda (who wrote Mystical City of God). In these two books, God gives them each visions and understanding of the Creation of the Universe. It does not happen the way Orogeny and hecd2 and steveanderson say. I assure you that in their books God CREATED everything in six days and it happened about 7000 years ago according to these 2 great Saints. Darwin = a deceived loser trying to disprove the Bible and make a name for himself. Darwin is no Saint!

im off for a week Happy New Year guys (even to P and all the rest) GOD AND VIRGIN MARY AND SAINT JOSEPH RULE!!!!! 

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Eliza10 

Re: T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth 

Three-Sixteen you did an excellent job defending your position here. And I appreciate the input from Cindy-Gia, too.

Someone asked above: why does this stuff give me a headache? I was reflecting on why it gave me a headache, too, and on why i rarely read these evolution threads. I did read this one and now I see why.

Frequently the evolutionists are steeped in their pet science theory for which they have found lots of science to support. Which is not hard, since its the most popular theory in science, and it enjoys the support of the best-funded research, too!

And the evolutionists are sharing opinions on a thread with those who are not steeped in science. And they don't think our opinions amount to much, and they are patronizing. We are emotional. Immature. 

So their posts reflect a certain arrogance, and discounting of the non-scientific opinion. Arguments they would not get to use if arguing with actual scientists who support creationism or something like it. But, for the most part, they aren't here - just us. They would have to go to another website to argue with their scientific equals. 

And so, we should just be quiet since they know everything and we don't. 

I conclude that it is the arrogance and discounting, the reaction to that, and the reaction to the reaction, that gives everyone a headache concerning the reading of these threads.

Its the same kind of exchange you can get on abortion discussions I'm sure, although here I imagine those run pro-life.

But all of us aren't impressed with science education credentials. We've all seen the bizarre conclusions of so many highly educated people. 

Also I don't think one has to be deeply educated in science to have a worthy opinion on the conclusions of the scientists.

In the same way, I don't have a degree in psychiatry, but, I can look at the theories of Sigmund Freud and conclude: "something is really messed up there." And I can read, and I know other psychiatrists agree with me.

And I look at evolution, and say, "Something is really messed up there." I know we did not evolve from apes. God made animals. God made people. He did not make animals that turned into poeple. Its really that simple. 

And I can read, and I know other scientists agree with me. 

I also am really bothered by the implication on this thread that the Pope supports evolution. 

Our Pope made rather positive, seemingly supportive comments about evolution when he was not a Pope. Priests, Bishops, and Cardinals have a whole mix of opinions on many matters. When one becomes Pope, can you look back at all they ever said and did, and now it all becomes the infallible Pope's opinion? We know it doesn't work that way! 

So please, I think it was P, please quit saying our Pope supports evolution! Thats not right. We only know what he thought some years back. We don't know what he thinks now as Pope. Maybe recently he is impressed with the T-Rex bone discovery, and now he supports the "young earth"! 

We can be sure he'll let us all know if he thinks its an important matter for faith and morals. Meanwhile we do know the bottom line and that is our Church is not taking sides on the matter.

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more posts from the Catholic Answers forums

CreosMary January 18, 2005, 08:01 PM 

Evolution-Creation? 

Dear Friends,

I am a little dissapointed, when ever I suggest that Creation was as literal as the Book of Genesis says it is some of my Catholic friends jeer. As far as I can see it was Adams sin that bought death in to the world so there could be no death before him, therefore no Evolution. Apart from the fact that evolution is ONLY a theory and one needs more faith to believe in the multi-trillion accidents to create basic life than in the power of God to create all that is seen and unseen within the set framework of 6 literal days. As it says in Genesis.."and there was an evening and a morning, a fifth day". Why cannot we believe in the awesome power of God to do this without making overtures to evolutionists whose ideology is often more irrational and fundamentalist that a terrorist.

It has been suggested to me that there was death in the world because plants had to die to be food. Genesis says "behold I have given you every plant yielding seed which is on the face of the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for your food". This suggest to me that God was indicating that these plants need to be eaten for them to propagate and a plant does not have to die to be food! Do cows kill the grass when they graze?, do we kill a tree when we eat its fruit? Remember we were vegetarians until after the flood

It seems to me that to believe in literal Creation is essential for us to believe in the redemption bought us by Christ, for if there was death in the world before Adam, there would be no need for Christ to come and vanquish death that was perpertrated by the first Man and Woman.

I would be interested in what others have to say about this and any theologians or apologists. Thank you and may God bless and Mary protect you all

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CreosMary March 31, 2005, 07:21 AM

Evolution-Creation?

Quote: Originally Posted by Steve Andersen
CreosMary, I know you mean well and are sincere but........I will pray for you
 


FOR WHAT Mr Sir, Your Excellency, you are so superior to me in all things, I prostrate myself before you Oh almighty master of supreme answer, Forgive me my innocent love of the Church and do not cast me aside in your anger but grant me forgiveness for my Silly faith in divine revaltion and Holy Mother Church GB

.....

I am sorry but I must alert everyone, there has been 'new revelation'

Mr Steve Anderson is GOD.

We looked for years and thought it was Jesus the Christ but it has been revealed

No it is Steve. he has ALL the answers to everything so therefore he must be the incarnate word.

Please all bow before him come in let us bow to our God, let us kneel before the God who made us, for he is our God and we the people who belong to his pasture

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rheins2000 April 12, 2005, 03:39 PM 

Re: Evolution-Creation? 

Quote: Originally Posted by Orogeny (Tim)
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
Now I answered your questions, please answer mine with something other than another question. Tim

Ummm....I read that article, and nowhere did it say where these transitional fossils are.

That's because there are none. Take a trip to any museum you want. You'll never find any. Every so called transitional fossil has either been proven a fraud, or misidentified. I hope you're not going to use Lucy or Homo Erectus or any other so called ape men.

There is not one scientific proof of evolution. Period. Tell me your best proof that you have for accepting such a ridiculous theory over the reality of God creating the world in 7 days.

To accept such a theory, thereby you would have to deny God and that would affect every decision and every thought you have in the rest of your entire life on this Earth. That sounds like something I would have to have overwhealming evidence to accept.

Evolution is a new liberal Godless theory...yes theory....that evil men have conjured up (just a couple hundred short years ago) in order to deny God, so that they will have no one to answer to, and no rules to follow.

Accepting Theistic Evolution is treading on very dangerous lines, because you are then giving some credence to this conjured up theory. Men have fraudulently used science(and by science, I mean there ridiculously errant hypothesis) to invent their own belief system, and then when confronted with their total lack of evidence, and evidence to the contrary, they then have to reluctantly submit God into the equation, on a passive level.

Please show evidence...scientifically proven evidence. Otherwise, my advice is to research where this theory came from and ask yourself if people gave their lives for this belief, as did our great Saints for the deposit of faith given to us by Christ himself in the flesh. CreosMary is right on in her essay. How can you just throw what she said away, but accept the enormously flawed logic and proofs of the Godless so called 'scientists' out there.

Here is a good website for creationism. I warn you not to accept the theology on this site, but the scientific evidence is enough to convince anyone of the Genesis supported creation viewpoint.....

www.DrDino.com

to be continued.....

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Prominent Catholics on the Subject 

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"Now there is another misunderstanding that is constantly found in the ongoing discussion, and I have to deal with it right here at the beginning. I refer to what is called 'creationism.' Nowadays the belief in a creator is automatically run together with 'creationism.' But in fact to believe in a creator is not the same as trying to understand the six days of creation literally, as six chronological days, and as trying to prove scientifically, with whatever means available, that the earth is 6000 years old. These attempts of certain Christians at taking the Bible absolutely literally, as if it made chronological and scientific statements -- I have met defenders of this position who honestly strive to find scientific arguments for it -- is called 'fundamentalism.' Or more exactly, within American Protestantism this view of the Christian faith originally called itself fundamentalism. Starting from the belief that the Bible is inspired by God, so that every word in it is immediately inspired by Him, the six days of creation are taken in a strict literal way. It is understandable that in the United States many people, using not only kinds of polemics but lawsuits as well, vehemently resist the teaching of creationism in the schools....

"The Catholic position on this is clear. St. Thomas says that 'one should not try to defend the Christian faith with arguments that are so patently opposed to reason that the faith is made to look ridiculous.' It is simply nonsense to say that the world is only 6000 years old. To try to prove this scientifically is what St. Thomas calls provoking the irrisio infidelium, the scorn of the unbelievers. It is not right to use such false arguments and to expose the faith to the scorn of unbelievers. This should suffice on the subject of 'creationism' and 'fundamentalism' for the entire remainder of this catechesis; what we want to say about it should be so clear that we do not have to return to the subject."

Christoph Cardinal Schonborn, Catechetical Lecture for 11/13/2005

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"So why does there seem to be a persistent retreat in the Church from attempts to establish a dialogue with the community of scientists, religious believers or otherwise? There appears to exist a nagging fear in the Church that a universe, which science has established as evolving for 13.7 x 1 billion years since the Big Bang and in which life, beginning in its most primitive forms at about 12 x 1 billion years from the Big Bang, evolved through a process of random genetic mutations and natural selection, escapes God’s dominion. That fear is groundless. Science is completely neutral with respect to philosophical or theological implications that may be drawn from its conclusions. Those conclusions are always subject to improvement. That is why science is such an interesting adventure and scientists curiously interesting creatures. But for someone to deny the best of today’s science on religious grounds is to live in that groundless fear just mentioned."

"These are very weak images, but how else do we talk about God? We can only come to know God by analogy. The universe as we know it today through science is one way to derive an analogical knowledge of God. For those who believe modern science does say something to us about God, it provides a challenge, an enriching challenge, to traditional beliefs about God. God in his infinite freedom continuously creates a world that reflects that freedom at all levels of the evolutionary process to greater and greater complexity. God lets the world be what it will be in its continuous evolution. He is not continually intervening, but rather allows, participates, loves. Is such thinking adequate to preserve the special character attributed by religious thought to the emergence not only of life but also of spirit, while avoiding a crude creationism? Only a protracted dialogue will tell. But we should not close off the dialogue and darken the already murky waters by fearing that God will be abandoned if we embrace the best of modern science."

Fr. George Coyne, Director of the Vatican Observatory, from The Tablet "God's Chance Creation", 8/6/2005

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"All of this is well and good, one might say, but is it not ultimately disproved by our scientific knowledge of how the human being evolved from the animal kingdom? Now, more reflective spirits have long been aware that there is no either-or here. We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the 'project' of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary -- rather than mutually exclusive -- realities."

"But let us look a little closer, because here, too, the progress of thought in the last two decades helps us to grasp anew the inner unity of creation and evolution and of faith and reason. It was a particular characteristic of the 19th century to appreciate the historicity of all things and the fact that they came into existence. It perceived that things that we used to consider as unchanging and immutable were the product of a long process of becoming. This was true not only in the realm of the human but also in that of nature. It became evident that the universe was not something like a huge box into which everything was put in a finished state, but that it was comparable instead to a living, growing tree that gradually lifts its branches higher and higher to the sky."

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, In The Beginning: A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall, 1986, 1995

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159. Faith and science: "...methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are." [Vatican II GS 36:1]

283. The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers....

284. The great interest accorded to these studies is strongly stimulated by a question of another order, which goes beyond the proper domain of the natural sciences. It is not only a question of knowing when and how the universe arose physically, or when man appeared, but rather of discovering the meaning of such an origin....

Catechism of the Catholic Church

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"According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the 'Big Bang' and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5 - 4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution."

International Theological Commission, headed by then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVI, statement "Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God," plenary sessions held in Rome 2000-2002, published July 2004

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"Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth -- in a word, to know himself -- so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves." (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).

FIDES ET RATIO Faith and Reason encyclical by Pope John Paul II (1998)

see also "Truth Cannot Contradict Truth" Message on Evolution
Address of Pope John Paul II to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences (October 22, 1996)

 

see also Index to Creationist Claims


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