Julie has stated, "Furthermore, [Sola Scriptura] does not deny the authority of the Church to teach the Word of God."

I am glad that Julie has stated this fact. And I agree with her completely. Now that we agree that the Church has authority to teach, the question remains if the Church teaches the true Gospel. With the guide of the Holy Spirit, the Church will "guide us to ALL TRUTH" (John 14:16f; 16:13). My logic goes like this:

(1) The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (cf. 1 Tim 3:15);

(2) The Church teaches Scripture;

(3) Therefore, when the Church teaches Scripture, what she teaches is true.

When the Church teaches Scripture, she must interpret them. We know that the Church teaches with Jesus' authority (cf. Matt 28:18-20; 18:17f; Luke 10:16). And Jesus' authority is infallible. Therefore the Church is infallible.

One example of this is the canon of Scripture, that is, the list of books in the Bible. As Peter Kreeft has said,

"A fallible cause cannot produce an infallible effect. But the Church is the efficient cause of Scripture. She wrote it. She is also its formal cause: she defined its canon. Thus, if the Church is only fallible, her canon of Scripture is only fallible, and we do not know infallibly which books are Scripture, that is infallible."

We also have to know that the early Church did not have the correct canon until the 4th century AD. That means that she did not have the full Gospel in written form, meaning that they HAD to rely on tradition. Julie therefore MUST either believe that they relied on tradition for the full Gospel, or believe in the development of doctrine, or she can believe in both. Julie also said,

"We profess the Scriptures to being God's final form of special revelation to His Church, as it carries with it God's inspiration."

However, where in the Bible does it teach that?

Does Scripture Teach Sola Scriptura?

One of the verses that Julie pointed out was 2 Timothy 3:16-17. We Catholics agree that Scripture is God-breathed. We have no problem with that. Julie said, "Scripture is fully sufficient." Actually, nowhere in Scripture does it have the statement "the Scriptures are sufficient." Sufficiency in 2 Timothy is a reference to the man of God.

Julie also pointed out that the Greek word artios means complete or perfect. However, when seen in context, artios does not mean complete or perfect in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. The Greek word artios is only used once [here in the NT]. It is used as a temporal adverb in 2 Samuel 15:34 [OT Greek LXX].

Colin Brown has written,

"artios here [in 2 Timothy 3:17] does not imply perfection, as was originally thought, doubtless because of the variant reading teleios, perfect, in Codex D. Rather it refers to the state of being equipped for a delegated task. So too, in Eph. 4:12 katartismos refers to the preparation of the church for becoming perfect, but not to this perfection itself, as can be seen from the use of teleios (complete, mature: � Goal), helikia (stature, � Age, Stature), and pleroma (� fullness) in v. 13 (cf. also 1 Cor 1:10). The terms artios and katartismos thus have not so much qualitative meaning as a functional one." (Dictionary of New Testament Theology, page 349).

Actually, if St. Paul wanted to say Scripture is self-sufficient, he could have used the much stronger Greek word autarkeia. This was used in 2 Corinthians 9:8 where it says grace is self-sufficient.

I can also misinterpret passages that have the words perfect and complete. Such as "Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete [or fully assured, Greek plerophoreo] in all the will of God" (Col 4:12 KJV; also James 1:4). Now, does that mean that prayer is the only thing we need? Julie will say NO of course, since we also need faith (Heb 11:6). Julie needs to prove from Scripture that Sola Scriptura is taught.

Julie states,

"Peter affirms the inspiration of Scripture in 2 Pet. 1:20-21. Furthermore, the Lord Jesus, in Mt. 22:31-32 brings the Sadducees to Scripture, and continues to plead from the Scriptures in countless other times in the Gospels. The phrase "it is written" occurs in 28 verses in the Gospel accounts alone (NASB version), yet the phrase "tradition tells us" or any related concept is noticeably absent. The Bible states that the apostles preached in the temples and on the streets with the Word of God, and in Acts we see the Bereans being the ones exalted for their studiousness in searching the Scriptures. The example set before us by Our Lord and the apostles is that of the sufficiency of Scripture. Furthermore, there are countless quotes from the early church fathers demonstrating that they upheld the sufficiency of Scripture and exalted Scripture to being the church's highest authority."

As for Matthew 22:31-32, Catholics agree absolutely with Jesus Christ. We should bring all people to Scripture. However, it is illogical to conclude that this means we should follow the Bible ONLY. It is also illogical to think that since Jesus quotes Scripture, it means that Jesus is instructing us to go to Scripture alone. I would like to issue this challenge: Where in the Bible does Jesus command the Apostles or anyone to follow Sola Scriptura? Sure He tells us that Scripture is sufficient. But that doesn't mean Sola Scriptura.

Also, in the next chapter, Jesus told the people, "Therefore, do and observe ALL THINGS whatsoever THEY tell you, but do not follow their example" (Matthew 23:3). This shows that Jesus told them to recognize people with authority.

So far, we can see the logic of what Julie has written: "Scripture is sufficient; therefore we should follow Sola Scriptura." Of course, but this doesn't make sense.

Julie also says that the phrase "tradition tells us" is nowhere written in the Bible. Well, the phrase "Scripture is sufficient" isn't in the Bible either. Julie also said that the early Church Fathers demonstrated that they upheld the sufficiency of Scripture (no objections), and exalted Scripture to being the Church's highest authority. If this is so, then why did the early Church Fathers teach the people to listen to their Bishops or teachers? Why didn't the early Church Fathers tell the lay people to go to the Bible and follow it only? Instead, they taught them to be subject to the teachers or people who had the authority to interpret Scripture (cf. Heb 13:7,17). So in other words, they instructed them to listen to two authorities: Scripture and the teacher (or the Church).

For example, St. Athanasius repeatedly says:

"...for from what sources have they got together these words? or from whom have they received what they venture to say? Not any one man can they specify who has supplied it." (Discourse Against the Arians 1.10)

"...who heard, in his first catechising [i.e. instruction in the faith] that God has a Son and has made all things by His proper Word, but understood it in that sense in which we now mean it?" (Discourse Against the Arians 2.34)

"For where at all have they found in divine Scripture, or from whom have they heard, that there is another Word and another Wisdom besides this Son, that they should frame to themselves such a doctrine?" (Discourse Against the Arians 2.39)

"However here too they [the Arians] introduce their private fictions, and contend that the Son and the Father are not in such wise 'one,' or 'like,' as the Church preaches, but, as they themselves would have it." (Discourse Against the Arians 3.10)

"And what is strange indeed, Eusebius of Caesarea in Palestine, who had denied the day before, but afterwards subscribed, sent to his Church a letter, saying that this was the Church's faith, and the tradition of the Fathers; and made a public profession that they were before in error, and were rashly contending against the truth." (De Decretis 3)

"For, what our Fathers have delivered, this is truly doctrine; and this is truly the token of doctors, to confess the same thing with each other, and to vary neither from themselves nor from their fathers..." (De Decretis 4)

"But let the Faith confessed by the Fathers at Nicaea alone hold good among you, at which all the fathers, including those of the men who now are fighting against it, were present, as we said above, and signed: in order that of us too the Apostle may say, 'Now I praise you that ye remember me in all things, and as I handed the traditions to you, so ye hold them fast.'" (To the Bishops of Africa 10)

In a couple of places, Athanasius even says the Scriptures are "sufficient" but is quick to add the necessity of the orthodox teacher for the correct INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures (the "divine oracles"):

"...come let us as we may be able set forth a few points of the faith of Christ: able though you are to find it out from the divine oracles, but yet generously desiring to hear from others as well. For although the sacred and inspired Scriptures are sufficient to declare the truth -- while there are other works of our blessed teachers compiled for this purpose, if he meet with which a man will gain some knowledge of the interpretation of the Scriptures, and be able to learn what he wishes to know -- still, as we have not at present in our hands the compositions of our teachers, we must communicate in writing to you what we learned from them, the faith..." (Contra Gentes 1)

The Canon of Scripture Again

Julie has stated,

"As a related issue, the Roman Catholic will state that the 'Church' gave us the Scriptures and the 'Church' defined the canon. These claims are absolutely incorrect. The men who assembled the volume of Scriptures known as the Bible, and who laid down the canon did so not due to an infallible move by an infallible church, but rather recognized the canon due to its inspiration. The fact can be stated once again; the sufficiency of Scripture has nothing to do with having the full and 'Golden' index of Scripture (an infallible table of contents). Scripture stands where it is because of the power and weight which accompanies being the God-breathed special revelation of the Lord. It stands alone because it is without equal."

That statement is not true. The Church recognized the canon BY THE INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit IS INFALLIBLE. Therefore the decision of the Church is INFALLIBLE. My logic goes:

(1) The Holy Spirit is infallible;

(2) The Holy Spirit inspired the Church to make the decision of the canon;

(3) Therefore the Church was infallible in making the decision of the canon.

The canon did not happen by "chance." The canon has a cause.

(1) God is the primary cause;

(2) God worked through the Church to make the canon;

(3) Therefore the Church was the secondary cause of the canon;

(4) If the Church was the cause, then the canon is an effect;

(5) If an effect is infallible, then its causes must be infallible;

(6) Therefore the Church is infallible.

We see now that the Bible is not the only infallible authority because Scripture does not tell us what Scripture is. Scripture was made (canonized) by the authority of the Catholic Church.

Going back to what Julie said,

"The men who assembled the volume of Scriptures known as the Bible, and who laid down the canon did so not due to an infallible move by an infallible church, but rather recognized the canon due to its inspiration."

This is a great statement. However, HOW did they recognize the canon? HOW did they recognize its nature? Julie has to answer these before she can make that statement.

Sola Scriptura Problems

The main problem with Sola Scriptura is that it leads to religious relativism. We cannot even know what is the objective truth on doctrine in Protestantism. Now, I am not talking about disobedient people who do not listen to their pastors or elders, but I am talking about a defined doctrine. For example, if two people are debating on the two wills of Jesus Christ, who has the final authority to solve the problem? Let us say that the Catholic Church is a false church. Then what? Where is the Church? Can Julie provide me a church that has preserved all the Traditions handed from the Apostles? Can she show me a church that has the Truth? Can Julie provide me an official doctrine of Protestantism? Again, I am not talking about disobedient people or opinions, but official doctrine. 

What is the final authority between disputes? The early Christians' answer would be the CHURCH. It was the creeds of the Church that told the people what the orthodox teachings were. Once again, as St. Athanasius has said,

"Hold fast, every one, the faith we have received from the Fathers, which they assembled at Nicaea�And however they (the Arians) may write phrases out of Scripture, endure not their writings; however they may speak the language of orthodox, yet attend not to what they say; for they speak not with an upright mind, but putting on such language like sheep's clothing, in their hearts they think with Arius, after the manner of the devil, who is the author of all heresies. For he too made use of the words of Scripture, but was put silence by our Savior�Had these expositions of theirs (the Arians) proceeded from the orthodox, from such as the Great Confessor Hosius�Bishop of the East, or Julius and Liberius of Rome�Basil (and a host of other Fathers)�there would have been nothing to respect their statements, for the character of apostolic men is sincere and incapable of fraud." (To the Bishops of Egypt, 8)

This quote again shows that Athanasius did not believe in Sola Scriptura. It shows that the creed of Nicaea DEFINED what the orthodox teaching is. The main question remains when a controversial issue comes up: who or what is the final authority?

Julie might say "Scripture is the final authority." In a sense, that is true. But we should know that most of the theological arguments (even from heretics) are made from Scripture. Unless God does not want us to know the truth, there has to be a final authority, which is the Church: Just as the Church declared that the Gentiles did not have to be circumcised to enter the new covenant (Acts 15). Where in the Old Testament does it say that the Gentiles don't have to be circumcised? In this first Council, James quotes Amos 9:11-12 --

"After this I shall return and rebuild the fallen hut of David; from its ruins I shall rebuild it and raise it up again, so that the rest of humanity may seek out the Lord, even all the Gentiles on whom my name is invoked. Thus says the Lord who accomplishes these things, known from my old." (Acts 15:16-17)

Now, could a Jew back then argue with James? Of course. There are many more OT verses that commanded the people to be circumcised. Also, if you look at it skeptically, Amos 9:11-12 doesn't say that Gentiles shouldn't be circumcised. A Jew who would have argued with James and the Council of Jerusalem would be like a Protestant today who would argue with a Pope or one of the Ecumenical Councils. Scripture tells us to go to the Church (Matthew 18:17).

Also, how can people throughout the history of Christianity even practice Sola Scriptura when most of them were illiterate? A little documentation on the literacy rates, and how indebted the Christian people were to Catholic bishops, priests, and monks.

"Jerome wrote in something between the Ciceronian Latin of intellectuals and the Vulgar language of the streets (the language that eventually became vernacular French, Spanish, and Italian). His 'Vulgate' (popular version) was entirely correct and grammatical, in no way offensive to scholars, yet it could be read and understood by the masses if the masses were literate at all. (It was not Jerome's fault that the schools of the empire failed in the fifth century and that there were no literate masses to profit from his work until the 11th or 12th century." (The Civilization of the Middle Ages by Norman F. Cantor [Harper Collins Publishers, 1993], page 70)

"From the sixth to the tenth centuries, during the times of cultural and economic stagnation that followed the fall of Rome, the monks held the Western world together. They provided most of the great missionaries. Reasonably secure, they preserved the ancient culture in their libraries, copying old books, making new ones, conducting almost the only schools. Monastery walls sheltered men with the impulse to escape the world, to seek virtue, to reflect on man's soul and his destiny. The monasteries were often compared to little paradise, refuges in an evil wilderness." (The Middle Ages by Morris Bishop [Houghton Mifflin, 1968, 1987], page 12)

"During much of the Dark Ages, monasteries were Western Europe's only centers of scholarship. In this eleventh-century German illustration two industrious monks are busy at work, copying manuscripts at their desks beneath a cloister's arches." (Bishop, caption under picture, page 29)

"But how, it may be asked, could the people who were unable to read (and they were admittedly a large number) become acquainted with the Bible? The answer is simple. They were taught by the monk and priest, both in church and school, through sermon and instruction. They were taught by sacred plays or dramas, which represented visibly to them the principal facts of sacred history, like the Passion Play...They were taught through paintings and statuary and frescoes in the churches, which portrayed before their eyes the doctrines of the Faith and the truths of Scripture: and hence it is that in Catholic countries the walls of churches and monasteries and convents, and even cemeteries, are covered with pictures representing Scriptural scenes." (Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church by Henry G. Graham [Tan Books, orig 1911, 1977], page 85)

"The Catholic Church, then, had to do the best she could in the circumstances; and I submit she did all that any organisation on earth could possibly have done for the spread of Scripture knowledge among her children. Vast numbers could not read; I admit it; the Church was not to blame for that. Latin was the universal tongue, and you had to be rather scholarly to read it. But I protest against the outrageous notion that a man cannot know the Bible unless he can read it. Can he not see it represented before his eyes? Can he not hear it read?....I am contending for the genuine, real, practical working knowledge of the Bible among the generality of Catholics in the Middle Ages: and, whether they could read or not, I do not hesitate to assert that, with few exceptions, they had a personal and intelligent knowledge and a vivid realisation of the most necessary facts in the Sacred Scripture and in the life of Our Divine Lord to an extent which is simply not to be found among the millions of our nominal Christians in these islands today. Whatever ignorance there was -- this at least all impartial scholars must concede -- the Church was in no way to blame for it." (Graham, page 86, 87)

So what were the authorities for the illiterate believer? The Catholic Church.

Tradition

We have to note to the readers that Sacred Tradition does not mean a "separate revelation." It means Tradition is a different transmission but the same Gospel. Julie has already quoted 2 Thess. 2:15, which states,

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."

Well, when did this command cease? Where does it say when public Revelation has been written down, go by the written Word alone? Where does it say that Sola Scriptura is not the rule of faith "during times of enscripturation" ? (cf. James White's admission in my opening statement). Why should the Scriptures be held any different while Revelation is being inscripturated? It doesn't make sense if the Gospel of Matthew isn't the only infallible rule of faith when Revelation did not cease yet, then when it ceased, it magically became the only infallible rule of faith. This means that Matthew was held differently then.

The fact is that Tradition is important and necessary. It was handy when the Church was dealing with heretics such as Arius. For example, the thought of the Trinity might be illogical. How can there be three Persons in one God? You are talking about three distinct Persons in one substance. That is illogical to the human mind. But we know that Scripture mentions that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. From the early Fathers we get the full meaning of what Scripture says. That is where we got the Trinity.

I'll quote from an Evangelical Protestant scholar, F.F. Bruce, in his standard work on The Canon of Scripture (InterVarsity, 1988) :

"Some New Testament documents were evidently designed from the outset to be written compositions, NOT substitutes for the spoken word. But in the lifetime of the apostles and their colleagues THEIR SPOKEN WORDS AND THEIR WRITTEN WORDS WERE EQUALLY AUTHORITATIVE.... The teaching and example of the Lord and his apostles, WHETHER CONVEYED BY WORD OF MOUTH OR IN WRITING, had axiomatic authority for [the earliest Christians]...." (page 118, 255, emphasis added).

Julie states,

"It is very possible that what Paul is referencing is something that he writes elsewhere in this epistle, or in one of his other letters. What of the transmission by 'word of mouth'? Paul had preached there in his ministry; and elsewhere in Scripture the oral proclamations of Paul have been said to be the oral pronouncement of the Gospel, nothing more."

Well, there IS more. Second Timothy 2:2 says, "And what you heard from me THROUGH MANY WITNESSES entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well." What does this mean? This means that Tradition has been passed to other people and they should be subject to what they say as well. I don't have to prove Tradition is another authority however. Julie must prove that Sola Scriptura is true, that the Bible teaches the concept.

Old Testament

The Old Testament church never taught Sola Scriptura either. Actually, the Old Testament teaches something different. It teaches that there are other authorities.

"If any case arises requiring decision between one kind of homicide and another, one kind of legal right and another, or one kind of assault and another, any case within your towns which is too difficult for you, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the Lord your God will choose, and coming to Levitical priests, and to the judge who is in office in those days, you SHALL CONSULT THEM, and THE DECLARE TO YOU THE DECISION. THEN YOU SHALL DO ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY DECLARE to you from that place which the Lord will choose; and you shall be careful to do according to all that they direct you; according to the instructions which they give you, and according to the decision which they pronounce for you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside from the verdict which they declare you, either to the right hand or to the left. The man who acts presumptuously, by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die." (Deuteronomy 17:8-12)

"King Hezekiah then stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, with harps, and with lyres, according to the command of David and of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the command was from the Lord through his prophets." (2 Chronicles 29:25)

"Prepare yourself by your fathers' households in your divisions (by tribe), according to the writings of David the king of Israel and according to the writing of his son Solomon." (2 Chronicles 35:4)

Conclusion

Neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever teach Sola Scriptura. It is a man-made tradition. Jesus warned us not to nullify the word of God by the tradition that man has handed down (Matt 15:1-9; Mark 7:1-13). Julie can try to refute Tradition and Church authority as much as she wants, but as we know that would not make her the winner of the debate.

My final logic would be: the Bible does not teach Sola Scriptura; therefore a person who follows Sola Scriptura must reject it because the Bible does not teach it. The Apostles were infallible in teaching doctrine. Now, for some reason, after the Apostles died, the infallibility ceased. Is this logical?

A.L.