God has blessed me. He has led me in this debate. I also enjoy the discussion with Julie. I enjoy her friendship. However, my opponent has failed to prove that the Bible is the only infallible rule of faith. Julie has said,

"My opponent fails to demonstrate at all how the church established by Jesus Christ is an infallible authority."

My opponent must have skipped some of the things I have written. So I must write some of the things I have said more clearly. I have shown in my opening statement that the Church has the power to bind and loose. Matthew writes, “Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 18:18). Now, if the binding in heaven is infallible (since God is infallible), so too the binding on earth is infallible. So there, I have shown proof of an infallible authority (which I have shown in the Opening statement and Rebuttal #1). I have shown that many Protestant scholars agree with the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:19. What does Julie say?

"The trustworthiness of the quotations my opponent cites is very questionable."

For some reason, Julie does not give proof for her statement. She has not shown how I misquoted the Protestant scholars. So I guess her statement is dead.

Julie also says,

"Or, furthermore, when the Roman Catholic has an argument on doctrine, can they call the Magisterium for a ruling? And will that ruling solve the problem or add fuel to the debate? Once again the point must be noted that a so-called infallible human interpreter has done nothing to alleviate debate amongst Roman Catholics."

To answer the first question, the answer is yes. Will that solve the problem? Of Course. By making a ruling, we would know who is right and who is wrong. For example, if someone said that Infant baptism is invalid and the other denies it, the Church can say, “Infant baptism is valid.” And so when Rome has spoken, the case is closed. Would that add fuel to the debate? Well, every ruling by the Church caused people to leave the Church. We now know which is the true doctrine. However, Protestantism doesn’t have this authority. They cannot even define doctrine.

Again Julie states,

"The Roman Catholic Church is a shining example of the fact that it doesn’t matter if one claims to have an infallible interpreter, that still there exists stark divisions in the Church of Rome. Is the Protestant a separated brother or anathema? Is Vatican II infallible or is it not? Even to cite something which my opponent brought up, is contraception Biblical or is it not? You will find polar disagreements within Roman Catholic camps on just such an issue. Was Cardinal Law of the Archdiocese of Boston acting on behalf of the Roman Catholic church when he shifted pedophile priests from one unsuspecting parish to another, and when he aided in covering up their deeds?"

Did we ever deny that Catholics do not disagree? I have already explained how the disagreements on theology and doctrine are different. And if there is a dispute on doctrine, the Church can give a final word who is right and who is wrong. What about Protestantism? Nothing. It is subjectivism.

I have asked, “A good example is contraception. Is contraception a sin? Is slavery a sin? Is modern "MTV type" dancing appropriate? Those are tough questions to answer. And we HAVE to know the truth on these issues. If we don’t, then Christianity would fall into religious relativism and subjectivism.”

Julie replies,

"In short, those things which the Bible is silent on should be surveyed with wisdom and Biblical judgment but nothing which the Bible does not make as binding upon the believer should be bound onto the believer’s conscience. The Roman Catholic may think such issues are related to the Gospel, but it is his to prove and not the Protestant’s."

Did you read those words? She said, “those things which the Bible is silent on should be surveyed with wisdom and Biblical judgment but nothing which the Bible does not make as binding upon the believer should be bound onto the believer’s conscience.” Let me give the examples of slavery, abortion, and birth control. Now, is it a sin to have a slave, have an abortion, or birth control? According to Julie, it depends on the believer’s conscience.

This is exactly the problem of Sola Scriptura. It leads to subjectivism. In fact, it even leads to moral relativism. For those who do not know what subjectivism is, it means that truth depends on the person, and there is no objective truth. So in a case of things such as slavery, abortion, or birth control, we cannot know if it is a sin to have those, since it is up to each believer’s conscience. In other words, in a case of morality, if it is not mentioned in the Bible (e.g. Birth control, abortion, etc), it is up to the individual to decide if it is right or wrong.

Where in the Bible does it say that? Where did Julie come up with that idea? If that is truly her case, then Julie is a moral relativist. This is why you should reject Sola Scriptura. It even leads people to believe in moral relativism. Julie’s answers have been unbiblical and thus, what is her authority for saying it?

Julie again states,

"However, to reiterate what I said in my opening statement, that the statements made by the apostles about things spoken, or traditions to be held firm to, do not necessarily indicate they are extra biblical. It is very likely that they were preaching the very same things that they were also writing to the churches in their epistles."

We do not believe they are extra biblical either. We believe that it is the same Gospel but a different form of transmission. Julie has misled the audience saying that Catholics believe that Tradition speaks of a different Gospel. Since my opponent keeps on asking me to give another infallible rule of faith (which I have given), I will give an example. We Christians ought to believe in the Bible. We believe that the Bible is the Word of God. However, the Bible does not teach us which books belong in the Bible. It was from Tradition and Church authority that we know that Scripture is inspired. So in other words, we are submitting to an infallible rule of faith by Church Tradition when we believe that the Scriptures are inspired.

Julie says,

"Mr. Bonocore sets up a false premise, and only allows for one of two extremes, forsaking the fact that there may exist a different option in his example. The Bible is clear with regards to salvation, or otherwise the apostle John would have been false when he stated “but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” (John 20:31)"

It’s funny how Julie would say that the Bible is clear in regards of salvation. Then why is it that Lutherans, Reformed Protestants, and other Evangelicals disagree on salvation? This issue is a doctrinal issue. They disagree on the nature of “faith” and “justification.” How do we know which is right? In Catholicism, the Church tells us which is the true interpretation. In Protestantism, it is subjectivism. In other words, with Catholicism, you can know the OBJECTIVE TRUTH.

Then Julie adds,

"Peter informs us that there are “some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction”, but he does not say even these hard things are unknowable."

Quoting Mark Bonocore, “We Catholics do not say that these things are unknowable either. We merely say that they are not knowable by "Scripture alone" apart from any Traditional understanding via the living Church established by Christ Himself --the Church that 1 Tim 3:15 calls "the pillar and foundation of Truth.”

Again Julie says,

"Where the problem lies is in the assertion by John, “The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.” Those who reside in the darkness cannot see the light."

Name ONE ancient Protestant who was “in the light.” Name one that you can agree with completely like you can agree with your fellow Protestants today.

Julie goes on,

"Furthermore, Bonocore’s premise backfires when we look at the Roman Catholic Magisterium. The pleas Roman Catholics make about the necessity of an infallible human interpreter seems to indicate the second of the two scenarios, that being that Scripture is only knowable to a select few who claim to know Scripture so well that they can point out who is correct and who is in error."

Quoting Mark Bonocore, “I see. Then Christ Himself was wrong when He commissioned Peter, telling him "Whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven; and whatsoever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven." What's more, we Catholics do not claim that the Pope is an infallible human interpreter of Scripture. Rather, the Holy Spirit is the infallible interpreter. He (the Holy Spirit) merely preserves the Pope from formally teaching error when making universal doctrinal pronouncements for the Church. We do not believe that the Pope is personally infallible every time he reads the Bible; and anyone who thinks that is what we believe is soundly ignorant of our Catholic position. Rather, we Catholics merely believe that one cannot properly interpret Scripture apart from, or outside of the living Tradition of, the Catholic Church. If a verse of Scripture meant something in the 2nd Century, then it cannot mean something entirely different in the 16th or the 21st Century. Or would you disagree?”

Mark Bonocore is correct. Julie has added another doctrine. Since Julie cannot prove that Jesus nor the Apostles practiced Sola Scriptura, she makes the theory of Sola Scriptura true AFTER the times of the Apostles and inscripturation.

Quoting Robert Sungenis,

"Evangelical James White admits: “Protestants do not assert that Sola Scriptura is a valid concept during times of revelation. How could it be, since the rule of faith to which it points was at the very time coming into being.” (“A Review and Rebuttal of Steve Ray’s Article Why the Bereans Rejected Sola Scriptura,” 1997, on the website of Alpha and Omega Ministries). By this admission, White has unwittingly proven that Scripture does not teach Sola Scriptura, for if it cannot be a “valid concept during times of revelation,” how can Scripture teach a doctrine since Scripture was written precisely when divine oral revelation was still being produced? Scripture cannot contradict itself. Since both the 1st century Christian and the 21st century Christian cannot extract differing interpretations from the same verse, thus, whatever was true about Scripture then must also be true today. If the first Christians did not, and could not, extract Sola Scriptura from Scripture because oral revelation still existent, then obviously those verses could not, in principle, be teaching Sola Scriptura, and thus we cannot interpret them as teaching it either." (Not by Scripture Alone, page 128)

It is also tough for Julie to defend her case because that means she must prove that the early Christians were aware of this when John died (who is traditionally -- no pun intended -- the last Apostle to die).

Julie claims:

"Keeping this in mind, if what we know about our Lord is solely contained in Scripture, and if the Church itself cannot be known apart from her master, then in what other form can the church find its identity?"

Since Julie says that what we know about our Lord is solely contained in Scripture, I would challenge her to give me a verse in Scripture where it says Jesus has two wills.

Julie says,

"However, nowhere does Christ or his Apostles decree the Church to be above the Scriptures or the production agent who gave us the Scriptures. They are “the pillar and support of the truth” (1Tim.3:15), that is that they uphold it and support it. However, the Scriptures define who the church is, what her manner of practice should be, what the Truth is that she should uphold, and how she should contend for the faith."

How can the Church be the pillar and support of truth if she cannot know OBJECTIVE Truth? I have already proven that Sola Scriptura leads to subjectivism. If Julie truly believes 1 Timothy 3:15, then she must reject Sola Scriptura. It is the Church that binds and looses. Note that Matthew 16:19, 18:18 does not say “Whatever Scripture binds,” but it says, “Whatever YOU bind.” In other words, it is the Church that binds.

Then she says,

"Furthermore, Paul tells us that Scripture is our sufficient rule for “teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.” (2 Tim.3:16) which are the functions of the body of Christ. We can rely upon Scripture because the Lord has promised us it would make us “. . . so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”"

We Catholics agree. However, we don’t believe that Scripture ALONE is sufficient. Also note that it doesn’t say that Scripture is self-sufficient (Greek autarkeia).

Julie also says,

"In order for my opponent to refute my position that the Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith, he must demonstrate another rule of faith equal to Scripture in reliability and inspiration."

The problem with this statement is that Julie has not proven that Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith. Julie has to prove that tradition is not an infallible rule of faith. Julie has to prove that the Church is not an infallible rule of faith. I do not have to prove anything since the burden of proof in a debate is always on the affirmative.

Julie again says,

"The Roman Catholic church itself recognizes a closure of canon and a cessation of further revelation at a certain point. Is the Magisterium that my opponent pledges his allegiance to somehow mistaken? Is their belief that the sacred deposit is contained in Scripture and Tradition false? To turn the arguments of my opponent around on itself, if we acknowledge that the 1st century church did not yet have a full rule of faith in Scripture while Scripture was being written, then His Church is not practicing as the early church did either, as it acknowledges a closure of canon and a full Scripture as a rule of faith."

We Catholics believe that Scripture is a rule of faith. However, we know that Scripture is inspired and a rule of faith because TRADITION SAYS SO. We know that Scripture is inspired because of the evidence of Tradition. We Catholics believe in a closed canon. That does not prove anything. Julie’s logic is: (1) Scripture is the Word of God; (2) The Canon is closed; (3) Therefore we must practice Sola Scriptura.

This is illogical. I ask her once again, to prove that Sola Scriptura is true.

She has said,

"The sufficiency of Scripture resides in its nature as the inspired Word of God. The validity of the practice of Sola Scriptura resides in the fact that no other “rule of faith” carries with it the weight of inspiration. Again I state that the only way my point that Scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith can be debunked is for my opponent to demonstrate to me another rule of faith which has the weight of inspiration. Otherwise my assertion stands."

How does Julie know that Scripture is inspired? Julie is trying to prove a universal negative. This is like saying, “God does not exist because the theist has not proven that God exists.” Well, has the atheist proven that God does not exist? The atheist’s "logic" is as illogical as Julie’s is. So far, Julie’s main argument has been, “Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith because my opponent has not given proof that it isn’t.” This is like the attempt to prove a universal negative. For those who do not know what a universal negative is, I shall give you an example. There are 2 people who sell products. One person sells product A and the other sells product B. The person who sells product A tries to make people not buy product B. And so the person says, “Product B is not good.” However, the person has not proven that Product A is good either. Let me give a dialogue,

Person with Product A: “Product B is not good!”

Buyer: “Prove to me Product A is good.”

Person with Product A: “Because Product B is not good!”

Buyer: “Ok, but prove to me that Product A is good.”

Person with Product A: “Because the other person has not proven that Product B is good!”

As we can see, the person with Product A is illogical. He has not proven that Product A is good, but has stated Product B is not good. Since Julie is trying to shift the burden of proof, let me give the burden of proof back to her. Prove to me that Tradition IS NOT an infallible rule of faith. Prove to me that Church authority is NOT infallible. She has the burden of proof. She is the one that claims Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith. She claims that Tradition and Church authority is not infallible. However, she HAS TO PROVE THAT.

Again Julie states,

"Lastly, while Paul does not state the word “alone,” he is not required to as he does not give any other rule of faith needed to make the man of God equipped for every good work. The absence of another rule of faith in Paul’s words to Timothy demonstrates that he felt the Scriptures to be sufficient."

Here, Julie is talking about 2 Timothy 3:16-17. This is irrelevant since if 2 Timothy 3:16-17 did not teach Sola Scriptura during times of inscripturation (if it did, Timothy would have practiced it) then it does not teach Sola Scriptura today. In fact, Paul DOES give another rule of faith. It is mentioned in 2 Timothy 2:2.

“And what you heard from me THROUGH MANY WITNESSES entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.”

In other words, what they heard from Paul is a rule of faith. Hence, he is giving a rule of faith that says Tradition is a rule of faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 says to keep ALL TRADITIONS. Now, when did this command cease? Where does it say, "after the inscripturation," this command ceases?

Summary

So far in this debate, I have proven that Sola Scriptura is unbiblical, unhistorical, and it leads to subjectivism.

(1) I have shown that Sola Scriptura cannot be biblical since what the Bible says doesn’t change, and Julie says that neither Jesus nor the Apostles nor the 1st century believers practiced Sola Scriptura; this implies that it could not have  been taught since the early Christians would have practiced it during inscripturation.

(2) It is unhistorical just as I have pointed out that early Church Fathers followed the Church’s teachings and Tradition as a rule of faith.

(3) It leads to subjectivism, which is unscriptural since the Bible says that you shall know ALL TRUTH. The Bible never teaches that “whatever Scripture does not bind, is bound upon the believer’s conscience.” Not only does it lead to religious subjectivism, but moral relativism as well.

Julie has not proven: (1) Sola Scriptura; (2) That Tradition is NOT an infallible rule of faith; (3) the Church is not infallible.

She has to prove Scripture is the only rule of faith before she asserts that there is no other rule of faith. That she did not do. Not to mention that Julie has admitted that Sola Scriptura became valid only AFTER the times of the apostles and inscripturation.

A.L.